Urban Guru Cafe

Discovering what you truly are

12. A conversation with Stephen Wingate – part 2 ***

Posted on 07.26.08 8:34PM under Podcast, Stephen Wingate

This is part 2 of a conversation with Stephen Wingate. Stephen leads us through an examination of ‘presence awareness’ and explains once again how we can investigate this reality if and when the suffering arises again.

Music includes: Tijuana Sessions, Dream Theater, Argentina, Flamenco Arabe and Native Flute Ensemble.

Stephen’s Website

Read Comments

  1. Posted by Ralph on 07.27.08 4:32 pm

    Right on !!

    It’s amazing that when someone speaks from their direct experience
    it comes across loud and clear and easily understood.

    Thank you Stephen.


  2. Posted by Tom on 07.28.08 4:11 am

    Good. No pretzelization of language.

  3. Posted by Bob Seal on 07.29.08 11:52 am

    Always enjoy listening to the podcasts.
    Stephen has a wonderfully clear view, it’s great to hear.

    BTW: Did anyone take any pics at Sailor Bob’s party?
    Be nice to see some, if there are any.

  4. Posted by gilbert on 07.29.08 3:29 pm

    Where are you seeing from? Isn’t that view clear and obvious?
    All there is is direct and immediate experiencing. The ‘me’ appears in that experiencing.
    The belief in that ‘me’ appears in that immediate experiencing. The mind is time. The actuality of immediate experiencing does not enter into time. Knowing that is enough.
    There never was a ‘me’ ever. ‘Who’ is it that does not understand that fact?
    What ‘I am’ is not a pattern appearing in phenomena. The whole manifestation is an appearance in THIS knowing presence. Full Stop.

  5. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 07.29.08 5:53 pm

    I think what keeps some seeking is that after awareness is seen as primary and the person as just a story within that awareness there can still be annoying, self-centered thoughts that continue to appear (always for an assumed entity of course). Folks think “I’m not there yet” because there may not be a blissful feeling all day long. Gilbert’s invitation to look at thoughts and to see if there is an entity attached is right on the button and can clear up this predicament. So-called good thoughts and bad thoughts will continue to appear, but where are you? Are you defined by those thoughts? Are you a state of mind? Those thoughts just come and go in what you are but you remain constant; you are already established as THAT.

  6. Posted by Ralph on 07.30.08 9:57 am

    Well said, Gilbert and Kimo, but unfortunately many will not understand what you both just said. I think that Stephen speaking from his own direct experience and doing the investigation about the assumed entity he once believed himself to be is a great starting point for many who truly want to end their suffering and find out who they truly are . Then perhaps with furher inquiry if they are honest and hungry for the truth of who they truly are, there are some good teachers out there that can help show them the way. Perhaps then they will understand what you both have just said. This is all done in time to see that eventually their true nature lives in no time but first there is work to be done by a someone who still believes they are separate and cannot yet see the emptiness where all arises.

  7. Posted by gilbert on 07.30.08 12:35 pm

    Ralph, is it true? you say: “but first there is work to be done by a someone” What ‘work’ can be ‘done’ by any believed in ‘entity’? Running around the garden chasing shadows just gets tiresome and ‘at the seeming beginning and in the seeming end’ you ARE what you ARE – no matter what ‘work’ you ‘do’. Being what you truly ARE is effortless.
    Trying to become something you are not is impossible and so it is extremely exhausting – for no one.
    SEEING this ‘fact of being’, which is not ‘of the mind’ – ‘Seeing’ itself is not a seeing with or via the translating mind. The translating mind content appears in the seeing and it cannot SEE anything or do anything and the Character is a complete fiction. ‘Who’ is threatened by such ‘pointing’? Let it be stated once more: The translating mind content ‘appears’ in the SEEING. It is never the other way around. Mind is TIME – apparent ‘time’ appears IN the Seeing.
    It is extremely simple – Investigate that self-center – see if you can find anything with any substance or independence.
    IMMEDIATE experiencing is all that there IS – can you find anything that is not in ‘your own’ direct and immediate experiencing? The mind personalizes that experiencing and the fact is that it never ‘becomes’ a ‘personal experience’. There is NO person.
    You can seemingly avoid this fact ‘forever’ but that activity is unsatisfactory and does not reveal the ‘ease of being’.
    The ‘person’ only ‘appears’ in the mind’s translation – it is an appearance only.
    The ‘Seeker’ NEVER gets where it dreams of ‘getting to’. Being is Being – Becoming is only a belief in a future time – and there is NO time – if you don’t ‘think’ about it.
    All this is radical for the believed in ‘person’ – but it is quite ordinary in THIS immediate experiencing of Naked Awareness.
    THIS can never be sold or given to anyone – it simply reveals itself AS it IS.

  8. Posted by Ralph on 07.30.08 6:57 pm

    Gilbert, when you say “Ralph, is it true ?”, who are you speaking to ?
    Here we are two imaginary characters having a dialogue, granted, but this imaginary character over here believed for a long time it was real and separate . It is now seen for what it truly is ‘an appearance only’.
    I agree with what you are saying but what I am trying to get across is that Stephen does a beautful job in describing his own experience on how his search ended for him and it comes across as authentic and easy to understand when the teaching is done this way. Dismissing the imaginary character as false WITHOUT investigation keeps the illusionary character real.

    I love this quote from Leonard Jacobson:

    ” In truth, there is no life outside this moment.”

  9. Posted by gilbert on 07.30.08 7:47 pm

    Dear Ralph, you are so quaint – When you say Gilbert, who are YOU speaking to? Non Dualistic jargon is useless. My comment was to the one who calls himself Ralph, the same one that says “Stephen is doing a beautiful job”.
    No one is ‘having a go’ at Stephen. He can fend for himself I am sure. I am not saying anyone should dismiss ‘the character’ as being false – I am saying “have a look, NOW, and SEE if you can find any substance or independence to that self-center”. There is no conflict here Ralph, if that is your true name. Conflict is a tension between two reference points in the mind. Awareness is non-dual and there is no conflicting tension in the natural state – everything flows just as it does. Who can argue with that? AND who cares whether Stephen is clear on this or not? The point is are you clear? Have you seen through the Ralph character? If so ‘who’ has a problem? In other words, if you are clear – why are you so concerned? Some ‘signposts’ are accurate – some are not. It does not matter ‘who’ points at what is true – it only matters that one takes a close look and recognizes the indisputable FACT that there is no answer or anything with any lasting substance in the mind. There is no method to it. SEEING is already happening. – Warm regards – Gilbert

  10. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 07.30.08 9:57 pm

    Can anyone deny that they are? There is non-conceptual awareness and there is a story of a person. Can your true nature be both? How far apart from non-conceptual awareness are you? Ask yourself – “Is there non-conceptual awareness, all of the appearances within that non-conceptual awareness, and then on THE OTHER SIDE of that non-conceptual awareness a “person” that is “owning” that awareness?” Surely, not. Look and see. That non-conceptual awareness is primary, everything is an experience by and within it, including the story of you and your existence as a person. Everyone ‘out there’ who believes they are suffering as a person – is that person and it’s sob story known or not-known? The personal story is obviously within awareness. This doesn’t take a long “investigation” to see. If you feel you are suffering, then you can’t deny that this “suffering you” is an appearance in awareness. If it were outside awareness, how would you think you were suffering? You are what you are. But if identified consciousness is your cup of tea, then enjoy yourself. As the intro says, “how do you like your coffee”, “I like it strong, strong is good..” If you like it strong, as in feeling intense suffering, then be my guest. The good news is you never left what you are.

  11. Posted by Ralph on 07.31.08 7:35 am

    The point I am trying to get across is simply this.
    After hearing Stephen’s talk, I was content with the way it was delivered. I have been involved in this nondual stuff for quite some time now and seen how many seekers are still struggling and suffering. I guess I was just trying to make a point that for all seekers out there in the nondual world who are still struggling and suffering, then try a different approach. Be present when your suffering arises without resistance. Stay in this sufferng and see it for what it truly is. This was the obstacle that ended my suffering. I stared suffering in the face and although terrified, I remained in its presence and finally saw that who I truly am is not that. The suffering is what I identified with and believd it to be me.There will be such freedom in that when seen. Another way of putting this is ‘you must first walk through the shit to be cleansed’.
    Sorry that my message did not come across as intented.

  12. Posted by gilbert on 07.31.08 12:04 pm

    Yes, Ralph, your message is clearly there but take a closer look – we are saying quite different things. I am saying you don’t have to walk through any shit……..not in THIS moment – and THIS moment is ALL THERE IS…..there is no bondage, never was and never will be – because what you are is NOT a body or any of the passing parade of ‘mind content’. What you are is actually invisible – no shape or form, taste or color. THIS is the direct pointing – there is NO process – there is NO practice – there is NO shit to walk through – what you ARE is nothing except THIS presence of knowing. Every ‘thing’ appears in THAT.
    There is no story. Full Stop. Yet THAT expresses itself consistently….so….
    The thing is this: The only difference between one who knows and one who does not know is the paradox – There is ‘no one’ that knows or does not know – the only difference is that the appearance of being ‘someone’ is seen through or not. Either way, that ‘one’ cannot get out of presence. The story told is the ‘bondage of self’. – Stop telling stories and SEE.

  13. Posted by Ralph on 07.31.08 4:42 pm

    Yes Gilbert, we are both saying different things that point to this ‘no thingness’ that we are. Lets leave it at that. Just pointers.

  14. Posted by tim on 07.31.08 5:53 pm

    Yes there are no customers for this knowledge.
    As the ancient text says “Stop talking, stop thinking and there is nothing will will not be able to Know”

  15. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 07.31.08 6:03 pm

    Yes, we just have to be careful that we don’t view this as exclusivity as in there are some who are done with suffering and there are those who are still suffering and need to get this stuff and do things to achieve their true nature–it’s already so–you are and it’s unmistakable. There’s no glorified Gilbert, Bob, or Ralph who has this and now the rest need to catch up to also achieve some final state. May appear that way in the story. But what allows the story to even register? We talk of suffering individuals and the action could arise to comfort those individuals, feed, clothe them, but after we’ve done that — ponder this — is there any separate existence as a suffering person except in a thought story and how can a thought or story even appear without awareness (which is primary)? And if you aren’t already established as awareness, how do you explain how anything even registers? It keeps coming back to that registering or absolute priniciple. Is the concept “I am a suffering person” present as your true nature to register the dawning of consciousness? Does the concept “I am a suffering person” see or hear or taste anything? Without you, the translating mind could not even appear nor the story of personal problems and deficiencies. There’s no suffering person who ever typed one word on this website and no enlightened person either. A concept cannot do anything. You are not a concept. You are not someone who is suffering, you are not someone who gets this, you are not someone who got this but loses it every now and then. You’ll never be a someone who gets this. That’s just another story and so is this whole paragraph I just wrote.

  16. Posted by Ralph on 07.31.08 7:30 pm

    Wow!! That certainly hit home.
    Thank you Kimo .

  17. Posted by gilbert on 07.31.08 11:58 pm

    As Bob Adamson’s latest book title clearly and simply states: “One Essence, expressing and appearing as Everything” – EVERY thing – No exceptions whatsoever. – The concept of ‘me’ seemingly, seemingly, seemingly dulls that immediate intelligence, which is expressing itself AS every ‘thing’, including the concept of ‘me’.
    Concepts come and go. How can you possibly be something that comes and goes?
    Full Stop.
    For what it is worth: If you have not read that book “One Essence”, I suggest it is probably the clearest expose available in print (at the moment). There are none of the usual ‘spiritual traps’, not one, in what Bob is expressing.
    To risk having my words pulled apart by those over zealous ‘non dualists’ – In the ‘appearance’ there are umpteen ‘teachers out there’ who, if it had not been for Bob’s ‘pointing’, they would still, today, be grappling with spiritual concepts, like so many others.
    Funny how so many are saying the same thing today, things Bob has been pointing out for about thirty years. In the First Instant, thoughts appear spontaneously without a ‘thinker’ nor an ‘entity’ attached to them. Events happen without a ‘doer’ attached to them either. Same, same.

  18. Posted by mark on 08.01.08 6:23 am

    How do we suffer?
    We suffer because we register suffering.
    If you register suffering
    Then your whole world is suffering
    Then you Are the suffering
    No registering, No suffering, No world

  19. Posted by Ralph on 08.01.08 11:41 am

    Hey Gilbert, can you help me out here. When Bob says ‘Full Stop’. What is he really saying ? It appears to me now that those 2 simple words carry alot of weight and truly says it all. Thank you.

  20. Posted by gilbert on 08.01.08 12:14 pm

    Taking delivery of the idea of being a sufferer is the catch. The ‘story of ‘me’ IS the bondage of self. See that, that ‘you’ does not register anything at all – it can’t because it is only an idea, see that, that concept about a ‘you’ registers spontaneously, the same as ALL impressions register. No one can ‘get behind’ that spontaneous registering (cognizing) that KNOWING Presence. – All these thoughts appear ‘on (or in) awareness’ – there is no ‘entity’ there – (to paraphrase Shakespeare) “no right or wrong, good or bad – but thinking makes it so” (makes it seemingly so).

    Yes (Ralph), ‘Full Stop’ means (one way of expressing it is) stop chasing concepts in the mind.
    Full stop – period. In dropping the engagement with thoughts, we do not disappear – seeing – knowing – presence remain without thought being there. This is an ‘insight’ into our true nature. The natural state, which is always here, reveals itself as non-conceptual awareness. We could say that the essence that we are, re-cognizes itself ‘more’ clearly in that instant. When the mind ‘returns’ with its content, it is known that the content is ‘appearing’ on that clear and empty ‘space-like awareness’.
    There ‘you have it’, many words (and concepts) to explain ‘something’ that is ‘no thing’ and ‘no words’. Full Stop.

  21. Posted by Barney on 08.01.08 2:52 pm

    Doesn’t it take ‘thinking’ to read?

    So we use ‘thinking’ to ‘think-cognize’ the ‘pointer’ to drop the ‘thinking’?

  22. Posted by Barney on 08.01.08 3:07 pm

    Doesn’t it take ‘thinking’ to read?

    But the ‘thinking’ that ‘cognizes’ the pointer isn’t ‘me’?

    ‘Gilbert,’ decisions are made regarding which tunes to play, audio clips to use, and effects to enhance, each of the Urban Guru Cafe installments — what/who makes these ‘decisions/choices’?

    Just thinkin’ happening in awareness?

  23. Posted by gilbert on 08.01.08 9:20 pm

    1. Reading happens. The words have been learned – no entity there. All that happens is a recognition ‘happens’ – it is clearly seen that there is no one in the thinking – the ‘thinker’ is merely another thought – thinking spontaneously appears and disappears. – This must be seen and recognized – it is useless as a concept only.
    2. Can you separate the ‘reading’ from the thoughts that arise from the reading?
    Decisions are seemingly made – don’t take my word for it – HAVE a look – SEE if you can find a decision MAKER. There is not much point looking for conceptual support for the habitually identified mind pattern called ‘me’. You wont find any. All that seemingly happens is that we keep propping up a fabricated self-image. It is not a small point to say that ‘most seekers’ have no wish to see through ‘the bondage of self’. There is just too much invested in it – and lots of stories of ‘progress already made by that ‘entity’.
    We build our ‘house’ on ‘the shifting sands of the mind’ – or a castle in the air – all ‘made of’ concepts.
    That is the old saying “Build your house on the ROCK” – ‘Rock’ symbolizes ‘what is true’ or Truth. – “Know the truth and the truth will set you free” etc.
    Beliefs need to be questioned – or they will bind the mind in ‘endless time’.

    ‘We’ ‘think’ we are so important within our erroneous beliefs.
    ‘We’ chisel our definitions and cling to insubstantial ‘things’ that are only transitory appearances ‘in the mind’ – There is no ‘mind’ apart from thought – so it is more correct to say these transitory appearances, thoughts, concepts and images ALL appear nowhere other than ‘in or on’ awareness.
    Has any one of them ever stayed stuck in the head or mind? – No. They may appear to go around and around but they all disappear without one exception.
    Have a look now. Don’t they all disappear from view when you really look?
    Understanding is in BEING – not the mind.
    BE – just BE.
    Stop trying to ‘become’ something ‘other’ than what you ARE. – Be what you are.
    It is very, very simple – yet so FEW actually take a good look at the believed in self-center.
    While taking a good look for that self-center, ask yourself this: “Where am I seeing FROM?”
    The arguments that are often put forward are all ‘postures’ taken in the dualistic nature of mind, a posture taken by a believed in entity.
    This is so obvious. If you are so convinced that this ‘decision maker’ exists – then why not ‘decide’ right NOW to investigate the ‘me’? And SEE IF it is true and real.
    Don’t get me wrong – I am not being rude – just being direct. ‘People’ don’t like direct because is disturbs the illusions of that imaginary ‘entity’.
    Then they complain that they just don’t ‘get it’. – It is ‘too difficult’ etc.
    Endless blah blah blah is not going to bring anything fresh and new.
    This moment is fresh and new – is that not so very, very obvious?
    So many extremely direct pointers, free of time stories, are available and ‘seekers’ expect to be spoon fed, or roasted pigeons to fly into their mouths, while they lay back in a hammock in the sun. All it takes is ONE clear view of the fact that there is NO ‘me’ there – and the whole story of me dissolves.
    It will arise again but it has lost it intensity – it can’t grasp ‘you’ because you have seen through it. Where are you SEEING from?
    It is not from a concept in the mind.

  24. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.02.08 7:08 pm

    Hey Gilbert, I daresay these impromptu postings are some of the best reading on the web. Better than Bob’s site and even better than your own site. The MP3s are great, but I really love the discussion that arises out of them moreso than the podcasts themselves. All somebody has to do is say something, and you’re flushed out of the brush like a quail to give some good insights and even some amazing ones that resonate so well. This is the only site I have tabbed on non-duality. It never ceases to amaze me how Bob’s students all have an original way of expressing these simple, wonderful pointers. Thanks for the posts everybody!

  25. Posted by Ralph on 08.03.08 11:39 am

    A moment of sharing while you sip your favorite coffee :)

    I read this somewhere:
    ” When we are full of self, we are blind. We see nothing but ourselves, our wishes, our desires, our thoughts of right and wrong, our will for the world.
    When we empty the self of self we become an empty vessel to be filled with the Tao, the will of God. ”

    It occurred to me that I ‘BLINDLY’ accept this false self as who I am – and from this blindness the questions are asked. Can this be the assumed stumbling block? It also occurred to me that this false self is always coming up with questions and answers. Is it possible that no answer is necessary? Just the awareness of it is enough… no right or wrong… just that it is As it IS. Why make it into a something?

    Hmmm…. life is so simple when there is no me to interfere with ‘what is’.

  26. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.03.08 8:09 pm

    Hey Guys, I knew full well that Gilbert would probably not post after being likened to a quail flying out of the brush. He didn’t want to seem predictable, but that was exactly my prediction that he would not write after being noticed for commenting so often (which the commenting surely isn’t a bad thing; we like your posts Gilbert!)
    R, why are you still seeking? Haven’t you seen that a concept will never register anything or do anything? You are NEVER going to BECOME any THING — yet YOU ARE fully AWARE. Whether your preference is “enlightened being” or “empty vessel to be filled with Tao” — you will never become any of those things.

  27. Posted by Mary on 08.03.08 8:26 pm

    Yes Kimo(Jim)
    It takes One to know One!! ;-)

  28. Posted by gilbert on 08.03.08 8:37 pm

    Ralph’s last comment does not need a response. His insight is that no answer is necessary – and it is true. Anyway, it is nice and cozy in the brush and the thought of an unnecessary flight out of the brush did not entice me. So much has been said already. It is not about mere entertainment and liking posts or not – the salient point is to ‘hear’ at least one direct ‘pointer’ and actually make the investigation – reveal the insubstantial nature of ‘me’. Once this is ‘done’, everything else takes care of itself. As for predictability, I can’t even predict what I will do or say next, so how can anyone else?

  29. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.04.08 6:03 pm

    On making a prediction — nobody can, but a prediction appeared nonetheless.
    There’s also nobody compelled to write out of a sense of duty and nobody who simply enjoys writing. But in the appearance, all of these things can seemingly be so. There’s no problem in that. The story does not touch who we are in the slightest.

  30. Posted by gilbert on 08.04.08 6:46 pm

    True enough Jimbo – yet is it ‘who’ we are that is not touched? ‘Who implies a ‘personage’ does it not? What I am is ‘better’. What I truly am is never anything that can be touched by phenomena (things).
    It appears that knowing this fact is extremely rare, in the appearance, and of course it is never so in the appearances. That is why the question is asked: “Where are you truly seeing from?” No expression can ever adequately convey an answer to this question. Yet a silent being-ness – of seeing – of knowing – is enough – is all that is necessary. – Once truly re-tasted it can never be forgotten. All of our words just scout around it and the best they can do is ‘point’. – Thanks Kimosabi.

  31. Posted by tim on 08.05.08 4:01 am

    “The story does not touch who we are in the slightest.”

    Is that a hindsight bias? Or can that be lived at the moment when your house is on fire for instance?

  32. Posted by Barney on 08.05.08 6:20 am

    (Disclaimer: personal pronouns used.)

    ‘I’ guess where ‘I’ get hung-up is yes, we truly are space — not as a concept — but as awareness with thoughts happening. However, don’t ‘we’ — the spacious awareness — utilize thought in awareness to the organism’s ‘advantage.’

    We can move our body to the right or left — one direction reveals a glorious Hawaiian garden with brown lovelies in grass skirts, the other direction reveals an ice cream truck smacking our spacious body/mind organism at 80 MPH.

    Even though there’s this spacious intelligence awareness — thought is still used. Do we put our energy into studying cancer, or dastardly sending anthrax through the post…?

    ‘Things’ still matter, don’t they? Just because ‘me’ is a thought, it doesn’t mean ‘we’ are to sit back and pick our navels, right? Take up space, let others provide us with clean water, etc… Evolution; treating others ethically?

    Are these thoughts clueless, taboo, childish? Somebody flush a roasted pigeon outta the brush, PLEASE!

  33. Posted by tim on 08.05.08 6:30 am

    lol, barney :-))

  34. Posted by tim on 08.05.08 8:29 am

    Hey guys,

    Are you aware of the new book of John Wheeler that will appear:
    “The Light Behind Consciousness”?
    Apparently there is a more fundamental ‘level’ beyond what is spoken of here!!
    Aren’t you afraid that with your current understanding you’re stuck in a cozy phenomenality?

    Kind regards,

  35. Posted by gilbert on 08.05.08 11:42 am

    Ha. By which light do you see? By which light do you know anything? Does the Sun SEE its own radiance? Can you SEE that awareness that you ARE?
    The endless enticement for the mind, is the believed in ‘fantasmagorical concept’ – some ecstatic state to go looking for – an ignoring of the natural state – a ‘going off’ in the mind, looking for ‘something’ that can only ever be a mind projection. How can you find something that your ‘own mind’ has projected? The absurdity of seeking is endless.
    It never ceases to amaze me how ‘seekers’ just go on and on trying ‘to become’ and ignore what they ARE.
    Thought spontaneously appears on awareness-consciousness. What can divide THIS presence into two? Awareness and consciousness are simply two different words for THIS singular Essence – THIS Essence is ALL. ‘Who’ is truly there to utilize anything? Events happen spontaneously – seeing that may ‘appear’ as threatening or as freedom – depending on the bias of mind. Where is anything judged from? There are No levels, No in front and No behind, no up and no down. No right and no left. No right, No wrong, No good, No bad. It is the mind that (seemingly) divides THIS natural ‘oneness’ into levels and ‘parts’ and endless conceptualizations. Imagination is NOT reality. Take a clear look now – where you are SEEING from is Clear and undivided – presence – Wakefulness has no ‘parts or levels’. The light by which you SEE and KNOW is INTELLIGENCE itself. It is the intellect that comes up with all these ‘parts and levels’.
    That intelligence is what you ARE. The appearance of the body, the instrument of cognition, the world and the universe all are expressed (appear) in, from, AS that One Essence. What Bob Adamson calls “Intelligence Energy” – the ACTIVITY of Knowing.
    Can ‘you’ or anyone ‘get behind’ THAT?
    As Bob so potently points out “Start from the FACT that you ARE THAT.”
    All the mind does is translate, name and divide THAT.
    A dog chasing its tail is a dog chasing its tail. Is it sad, funny or just an appearance?
    Do we have to ‘think’ about it before we respond? Can you slide anything between the impressions and the response? The laughing is spontaneous. Analysis paralysis and trying to ‘get to some state’ is the prison, ‘the bondage of self’. It’s all about ‘ME’.
    OK, so see if you can find this ‘me’. You can sing a song about it, or write a thesis on it, you can ‘do’ anything at all – anything but the investigation. In really finding there is NO ‘me’ – all the questions, opinions and fragmentations of mind DISSIPATE.
    All the seeking is a joke – but it is not a joke for that ‘me’ though.
    Warm regards – Gilbert.

  36. Posted by Barney on 08.05.08 3:17 pm


    [more pronouns…]

    Thanks for your comments. There is silence upon reading them… but then ‘thought.’

    “I see,” does not see; ‘seeing’ happens. “I hear,” does not hear; ‘hearing’ happens.

    Cognized, however:

    * “I think,” does not think; ‘thinking’ happens…? *

    It is well known that ‘genuine kindness’ will get better service, and ‘flipping the bird’ (not quail) on a freeway encourages gunplay.

    These ‘actions’ are ‘thought.’ ‘Who’ do they affect? The ‘body/mind organism,’ yes?

    So ‘thought’ isn’t ‘directed’ — it ‘just happens’? Certainly can’t ‘wrap my head’ around that one… It seems like a different animal from the “I see/I hear” analogies, as thinking really isn’t a ‘sense perception.’

    Conceptually yours,

  37. Posted by gilbert on 08.05.08 4:11 pm

    Action and thought are ONE. They only appear to be separate. Thought, speech, action are three aspects of the one (non) thing.
    The animal is an appearance. The body has NO substance apart from the LIFE that animates it. Even a ‘dead’ body is life – microbes working away at decomposition etc.
    The buried body feeds the soil with various elements, which in turn feed plants, worms etc.
    It is ALL LIFE. LIFE does not know death. Yesterday’s insight is dead and gone.
    There are no separate enlightened beings. All Being is the ONE – or the ONE is ALL Being.
    That silence is this living intelligence – the mind is stilled – understanding shines of itself – with NO ‘entity’ to dull that spontaneous ‘light of knowing’.
    You are not the light – what you truly are is the source of the light.
    This emptiness is not vacant – it is self shining intelligence – THAT appears as everything – there are no exceptions. There is no one that knows this. THIS is the knowing of everything. In our persistence in ignoring our true nature, we put a seeming limit upon this shining brilliance of being. That is completely unnecessary. As Ramana Maharshi says: (paraphrasing from memory) “You are the Infinite Being – then you take yourself to be a limited being (poor me) and then you create methods and practices to free yourself from these limits – but if these methods and practices IMPLY those limits – HOW can you free yourself with them?”
    That quote is one of the most potent expressions one can hear. Yet so many ‘teachers’ pass it by – because it undermines what they teach – Methods and Practices.
    – “I rest my case your honor”.

  38. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.05.08 6:23 pm

    Good stuff Gil.
    Yes, some will ridicule as in ‘what happens in a fire’, do you just stand there and burn? Or do you just contemplate your navel? Or just do nothing and have someone else feed you? There is no understanding for a somebody to get or a way for ‘somebody’ to behave now that ‘they have it’. This isn’t about being a separate person in control and then this stuff is understood and then you are a person with ‘mastery over life’, or that the person used to be but now magically disappears or we imagine it disappears due to some escapism fantasy that we get from reading non-duality books. It’s the direct seeing (not a belief–do you understand the difference?) that you aren’t a person and there never was a person. There’s just non-conceptual awareness. Nothing superhuman to ‘get’ from this for a supposed separate entity to ‘have’. Worthless for the mind and the separate entity–I wholeheartedly agree!
    On the opposite end of the spectrum, some will say ‘I see the jokes about this pointing but I will not mock this because I know this ‘could be it for me’ and I’ll persist and read Gilbert’s stuff over and over until it finally happens for ‘me’.”
    Try starting from the fact that YOU already ARE THAT. Stop taking yourself to be an Idea or a Mood or a Thought or an Object within a decision scenario. If you are convinced that one of those items or ideas is what you are, point to it directly rather than just assuming it is so–prove it to yourself. If you really are a physical or mental contruct, then you must have a center where you can say “this is what I am; this spot is the core of my being”. Can you point to that center of your being? Maybe who you are is “I am a spiritual person” and that thought is what beats your heart and takes a breath 15 times per minute. Or maybe you are a marble-sized point somewhere in the exact center behind your eyes and midway back within your brain. Maybe if you are a great person, a surgeon can remove this “you” and preserve it for others to marvel about for centuries to come. Wow, there’s so-and-so! (they gasp as they look at the little marble that is you displayed in a box) Just see that THERE ALREADY IS WHAT YOU ARE CUTTING THROUGH ALL OF YOUR B.S. STORIES. HOW ARE ANY OF THESE STORIES REGISTERING? HOW ARE YOU SEPARATE FROM THAT AWARENESS? WAKE UP.

  39. Posted by gilbert on 08.05.08 6:38 pm

    Yes the mind will postulate all sorts of situations and ‘try to argue’ from a particular point of view…(holding onto old views)..all in the mind.
    THIS moment is clear and empty. Like the eye ball, the mind is also clear and empty. Nothing has truly lodged in the mind. The eye is not full of old impressions clogging up the clear view. Thoughts come – thoughts go.
    ‘IF’ is the biggest word in the English language. IF a fire was threatening that body of yours – wouldn’t intelligence spring into action instantly? Would it wait for permission from that ‘ME’?
    No……all the story about the danger would come in after the fact – after the ‘escape’. The ‘me’ story is not the actual ‘reality’.
    There is no escape for the me.
    There is a FIRE that burns inside you – what are ‘you’ going to do about that?
    All the elements are balanced and if that balance depended on a conceptual ‘me’ we would all be stuffed chickens. – Warm regards – Gilbert.

  40. Posted by mark on 08.06.08 11:02 pm

    You can bring a horse to the water.
    But you can’t make it drink !
    No need to ridicule the ‘have-not’s’, Kimo(Jim)
    Everyone is that allready

  41. Posted by gilbert on 08.06.08 11:49 pm

    Ya…..and of course there are no ‘have-nots’ – everyone is THAT.
    The belief in the concept that ‘I don’t have it yet’ is the blockage.
    The concept of being separate can only persist as long as the story of ‘me’ is not investigated. Any ‘means’ whatsoever that ‘brings about’ a clear looking into ‘what I truly am’ and what ‘comes’ from that, is valid – even ridicule – however, I see no ridicule in what was written. Maybe ridicule is in the eye of the beholder. – Cheers – G.

  42. Posted by Barney on 08.07.08 3:27 am

    ‘Gilbert, Mark’ —

    But ‘thoughts’ are still valuable, no? To ‘whom’ or ‘what’? To the seeming body/mind organism’s comfort — no? ‘Thought’ takes a thorn, picks the thorn out, then tosses them both. Maybe ‘thought’ can grab a sterilized scalpel or laser next time?

    Thomas Edison had some pretty good ‘thoughts’ — Einstein, Gandhi, heck, even Jesus strung together some pretty good ‘thoughts.’

    It seems that ‘thinking’ has ‘value.’ ‘Up, down, yes, no, right, wrong’ are ‘reference’ thoughts and therefore meaningless. ‘Indoor plumbing’ was a ‘thought.’ ‘Penicillin, condoms… Al Gore’s internet.’

    Are these just ‘mind games’ and ‘avoidance’ of self-investigation? Or, is it possibly seen (but only conceptually) that thoughts arise in awareness, yet mean something too?

    Sorry — ‘I’ can almost hear the response: “Who’s sorry?” Look, clearly I’m not beyond making an ass outta myself on this site (“Who makes an ass?”) — this isn’t about ‘trying to be right,’ it’s about reaching out for some ‘help’ from my diversely and genetically related brothers and sisters textually arising in awareness…

    In summary: there is seeing that there is no ‘point’ at which ‘thought’ can be traced to beginning, other than ‘appearing’ in space-like awareness. Nevertheless, it seems to be able to be ‘guided’ and ‘pushed about’ willfully. No?

    Are you just saying that thinking happens, but there’s no little me entity doing it? The shining intelligence does the thinking and ‘subsequent’ guiding/directing of thought? Maybe there’s just confusion with ‘thought’ versus ‘me/self-entity’ thinking?

    So the self-shining intelligence comes up with some ‘pretty good shit’ now and again, for this perceived life-form which arises in awareness — which is THAT — and which in thought/language ‘we’ refer to as humanity?

    This body/mind’s ‘head’ feels like it’s gonna blow…

    — ‘Barney’

  43. Posted by tomvdsp on 08.07.08 8:21 am

    Remember those moments when solving a mathematical problem, or a puzzle or maybe a technical problem.
    My experience is always that in a flash the insight (not yet internally verbalised) comes outta nowhere so to speak. It’s always like that; You see a situation or you see the inside of a malfunctioning apparatus and just by seeing the overview of the situation, maybe after verbalizing or thinking out loud the question ; “How can this be?, because this and that and so and so…” Just by stating the question clear for yourselves without effort the solution comes. This is the “Aha”-erlebnis, the Aha-experience. Though you might say “Oho” or “Wow” or “Eureka” it doesn’t change the principle. then afterwards you ‘understand’ the problem by putting it in long sentences that can be conveyed by speech to another person. But first and always comes the seeing-understanding’-reflex. Truly do you understand how you understand anything? It just happens, ex-plaining (= unfolding what is given in the moment) comes afterwards, very much like the undertitling of movie. Thoughts don’t do the understanding of anything. They just bear witness, they are the residue of it. The fossil record of the Alive Knowing.
    It’s dead and done with.
    Thought’s, ‘the mind’, are habitualy translating everything for you. No harm done! If you walk down the street and see a tree it will tell you ever so friendly ‘tree’. This knowledge is pure, it’s the natural explaining of the mind and will help you. Just say thank you and walk on by :-)

  44. Posted by tomvdsp on 08.07.08 9:01 am

    The ‘mind’ exists because it continually thinks about ‘other ‘ things than itself.
    ‘Tree’, ‘car’, ‘child’, ‘sky’, ‘lake’,…Which are all reflections of itself. It’s centrifugal. By forcefully supposing an “outside” it implies an “inside”. It pretends to be a nuclear centrifuge that can split wich is essentially a-tomic, Indivisible.

    So the mind = the dog chasing it’s tail. It is ‘OUROBOUROS’ or the snake that eats its own tail.

  45. Posted by gilbert on 08.07.08 10:19 am

    One Essence, expressing and appearing AS Everything.
    The mind divides (in the appearance only) THAT which can never be divided.
    It is the ‘me’ – it is time – the reference point ‘me’ is constantly being referred to – so how can we say it does not think about itself? – But take a look – does it think about anything. Isn’t the truth of the matter that thoughts just appear.
    You think they are your thoughts. The claiming ownership is just another thought. You imagine, with that ‘reference point me’, some sort of ‘control’ is happening – that is another thought also. All the while the direct evidence is clearly present, that there is no one there doing anything.
    However, that view is ONLY from (pure) seeing – yet ‘the view’ we believe in is only made of concepts and is nothing but conceptualization. That is duality, a seer, a thinker, the seen and the thought. The KNOWING of what I am is not from memory. It is immediate and requires no impressions from the so-called past or the so-called future. All there is is SEEING (knowing) and everything is contained in THAT. It is only the mind that seemingly divides THAT. One without a second MEANS exactly THAT. THAT is not actually DOING anything but it APPEARS as the doing of everything. Understanding THIS is silent understanding. Mind is TIME. Appearing as time, the restless mind will just go on and on dividing and coming up with more and more conclusions – each conclusion immediately needs maintenance or it will be divided by the same ‘mind’ into further conceptual postulations. The only way out of the mind is full stop. (period.) In that full stop you have gone beyond the ‘me’.
    See that very clearly, just once, and it is enough.
    Relentless ‘pointing’ happens – for the seeming benefit of ‘seekers’. The seeker is nothing but a conceptual construct – an ignoring of the natural state of REALITY.
    P. S. – There is no rudeness or abuse aimed at anyone happening ‘here’. Whatever it takes to crack the habit of belief is valid.
    And above all there is NO separation.
    If you actually listen to what Stephen expounds in the first five minutes of this program (part 2) and recognize the truth of it – it is enough. Full Stop.

  46. Posted by Ralph on 08.07.08 1:11 pm

    Quote: ” The only way out of the mind is full stop. (period.) In that full stop you have gone beyond the ‘me’.”

    Yes, Gilbert, that says it all but we must add that there is a surrendering process to take place here by the ‘me’ that is still believed to be real before the SEEING (knowing) can take place. We can’t have it both ways . Another way of saying this is ‘die before you die’. I believe that when one just had ENOUGH and is totally EXHAUSTED with all this, they are’ ripe’ for awakening. We must get to the root and see that the ‘me’ is still in control and who we think we are.
    In truth there is no ‘other’ but there also is no ‘me’ , this must be seen.
    So, what I am trying to get at is that there is ‘work ‘ to be done to ‘undo’ who we think we are and this process takes’ time’ as our conditionied past is still alive and doing well . We use the mind to know the mind to get behind the mind.

    You may ask surrender to who or what ? one way of saying this is surrender to the god that is in you. Unfortunately this can’t be done in a split second even though the truth will get revealed in a split second.

    Once it is revealed then’ stay quiet’ or ‘full stop’ .(period).

  47. Posted by gilbert on 08.07.08 1:45 pm

    Get this clearly registered: The ‘me’ has NO Power to do anything – it is only erroneous belief that suggests that it has. – There is no process – the apparent process is in appearance only. There is no one that AWAKENS. That is all concepts based on time and is obviously only a story. Explore it in this immediate presence.
    Wakefulness is present – No?
    Where else is this wakefulness to be found? Isn’t it right here, right now?
    isn’t it what you ARE?
    Where are these ‘concepts about someone awakening’ happening?
    Get this clear and precise right NOW – They are all appearing ON that Wakefulness.
    Going with those concepts is a movement ‘away’ from the obvious naked wakefulness – a conceptualizing, which also appears as the ‘seeking’ a seeking that is a movement away from the very (non) thing that is being sort – by ‘whom’?

    Awareness is non-dual – it IS Presence – the mind, which is nothing but transient appearances, it all comes and goes. Knowing this fact is enough (for the mind) – the KNOWING is actually always residing beyond the limitations of mind.
    Go back into that ‘clear space of knowing’ – look around – isn’t it clear and empty?
    Where is the seeing happening? Is there a ‘you’ that is seeing?
    The concept that there is a ‘you’ there, is an appearance. See that as a fact and the ‘story of me’ is over.

  48. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.07.08 8:18 pm

    Yeah, seeing that no concept can define who you are and that no concept can do anything is all that’s needed. Many will scoff at this as Neo-Advaita and say that the separate you has lots of work to do to purify itself and surrender. “By the way, come talk to me and I’ll show you the real Buddha method not the crackpot Bob method, and it will cost you a few thousand dollars every year until you can realize just like me…”
    This stuff is so simple. How can being what you are be anything but simple? What training could possibly be needed before you become what you are? It is effortless; already evident, and unchanging. But it can never be grasped or found as an object. When that is known, the mind stops looking and there’s a full stop. What could possibly be found by seeking? Only something interesting and something with a bigger kick for the ‘mind’. But you still haven’t found what you’re looking for–yourself.
    Even in telling stories to Gilbert about experiences of war, love, awakening, and peace, there’s no separate entity who can stand apart and claim those experiences. They’re just stories, always arising presently, in awareness itself.

  49. Posted by tim on 08.07.08 8:54 pm

    Yes, It’s all just a matter of acquiring a strong non-dualistic bias towards reality

  50. Posted by gilbert on 08.08.08 12:47 am

    Tim – I am not meaning to be rude in any way but that is crap.
    There is NOTHING to acquire.
    Non-Dualistic Bias?
    What the Bleep? Where did you get that from? Imagination?
    ‘People’ quite seriously go on about ‘Non Dualism’ and now we suddenly have ‘Non Dualistic’.
    Any ‘ism’ is multiplicity. The correct term is Non-Duality – full stop.
    I don’t know ‘how many times’ it needs to be said and anyway the pointing just keeps happening. Somehow it doesn’t register cleanly. Could it be ‘old ideas’ get in the way?
    There is NO answer in the mind.
    Who can have a bias towards reality? The language in that sentence is very twisted about and truly meaningless. Of course there is every possibility that you may well be ‘pulling our leg’ (joking) Tim. No harm done but someone may take ‘your idea’ quite seriously.
    Listen to Stephen’s program again – even just in the first 5 minutes – if you can grasp what he is pointing out there – it truly is enough. He is not crapping on.

    P.S. If some of these comments get too ‘silly’ they will probably be removed.

  51. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.08.08 1:51 am

    I’m not sure anyone was attempting to be silly. I think it’s really hard for folks to understand that this isn’t about being a person who reaches a state where enlightenment can be experienced and held onto. Folks see Gilbert, Bob and view them as separate people who ‘have the understanding’. After all, there are pictures of Bob and of Gilbert on the internet and they are alive, breathing human beings– and we’ve all been trained and conditioned to recognize distinct individuals and conceptualize their attributes–one of those being “a wise person who has the understanding”. And these same folks who see or hear of these enlightened beings want that understanding too and to become like Nisargadatta or Bob or Gilbert. By the way, none of this will click by trying to become “a non-entity” or denying that you are a person over and over. It’s the direct seeing that non-conceptual awareness is the bedrock of everything and your identity. Nothing conceptually downstream that is experienced within that knowing such as “being an enlightened being” “being a confused person” “being a suffering person” has the power to do anything because those ideas are nothing but thoughts.
    Identified consciousness can attribute thoughts and actions to the idea of being a person until the cows come home, but it’s all in the appearance. And nobody will deny that you are having that experience. And the belief in that person can certainly bring about quite a sting when that believed in person continues to encounter problem after problem in life. But consider what never changes, what has to be there for the experience of being a person to even be acknowledged? How far apart have you ever been from that knowing? How can you be the knowing and also be the suffering person? Which one are you? Hint: you’re not a chameleon who keeps switching from being Reality to being a Concept depending on how you feel each day. It probably took you 60secs to read this post. If you weren’t present as the living Reality but only a concept–how did your heart keep beating and how did you keep breathing over the last minute you were reading this post? The hide and seek is over. I found You.

  52. Posted by Ralph on 08.08.08 7:44 am

    I read this on a forum site titled ‘clarifying ego':

    “One of the most misunderstood ideas is that the “ego must die or be killed”. This itself is ego talking, for what else except ego would think such a thing? The ego isn’t a real entity – yes, it is present at times, but it isn’t you, it isn’t what you are, and it will fade away when it is seen through for the illusion that it is and return when it is useful. One must investigate to discover this for oneself otherwise it just turns into another concept to get lost in.
    the illusion of ego ends when it is investigated…… but it must be seen clearly by oneself….. the words of others in no way can illuminate….. this must be done by each one of us.
    Most importantly, until the truth of this is realised, then to say that the ego is an illusion, becomes just a concept to debate and get confused about.”

    I hope this helps.

  53. Posted by gilbert on 08.08.08 10:44 am

    It is all concepts. Even this ‘mind’ that we go on about is nothing substantial. Try and find the mind. Go on. Do it. Don’t take anyones word as reality. There is only one way to find reality and that is to BE reality. The mind cannot be divergent while it is clearly (consciously) included in the immediate SEEING. (Not by a someone) By starting with the fact that you are this reality – an automatic investigation ‘happens’. The mind reveals itself to be ‘space-like’ – a ‘space of knowing’. Thoughts, concepts and images appear and disappear and the belief in the seeming power that they seemingly ‘have’ is automatically removed. The clear and empty nature of mind is obvious – yet the mind cannot name it – therefore it cannot have a story told about it. We are so habitually attuned to stories, we miss the obviousness of this ever so subtle resonance of being – this conscious presence that we are – ‘consciousness’ itself. Awareness is undivided and unceasing – non dual. The subtle fact of that is missed only because of the habit of believing in thoughts and believing in the ‘thinker’ (ego). There never was anything called ego – it is just another concept. When they do an autopsy on a ‘human body’ they never find anything called ego. The false cannot stand up to a clear investigation. The essence of any insight and the essence of this investigation is SEEING. Seeing is happening. Not by the grace of some concept called ‘GOD’. The concept of God appears in the seeing.
    You can postulate all kinds of philosophies and religious ideas – but see this: Every single one of them is an appearance. We must not underestimate the potency of clear pointing.
    The mind must be understood – otherwise ‘we’ go around and around and the misery of believing in a concept of being separate continues.
    It is through words that the apparent “bondage of self” ‘happened’ and it can be through words that that same bondage is seen for what it is and it automatically slips away. That slipping away is happening right now – but the mind keeps grasping at more and more concepts – trying to bring some substance to that phantom (ego) which we call ‘me’.
    It is obvious that a resonance is happening with many listeners and readers.
    I have plenty of ‘things to get on with’ and there is no benefit for myself in this – yet intelligence keeps expressing itself here. The resonance that happens is LIFE. The natural pulse that never moves away from This First Instant of BEING. That is what you are. For the mind – all it has is concepts – but without this LIFE force (that you ARE), this shining intelligence – the mind has nothing at all – Because – it is LIFE that animates everything, including the very appearance of thought.
    This is obvious – yet why has it not been recognized? Only you can answer that – or can you? Isn’t there a recognition happening?

  54. Posted by tim on 08.08.08 7:09 pm

    “yet why has it not been recognized? Only you can answer that ”

    I ask myself this question many times. Yet it bears no fruit !!

  55. Posted by gilbert on 08.08.08 10:04 pm

    The ‘answer’ will not come from the mind – all it has is words, imagination and memory. Seeing is Being – not two. THIS present SEEING has nothing to do with the past or the future or anything to do with what ‘people’ call ‘intellectual understanding’.
    It is THIS immediacy ONLY.
    The mind is the past. It is time. The ‘reason the recognition eludes ‘you’ is:
    1. You apparently insist on being ‘someone’ trying to see ‘something’ (duality) – Both are appearances in SEEING. The basic equation is: Duality is an appearance in Non Duality. The fact is that there is NO duality in Non Duality.
    2. Because you are ‘looking’ with the mind. That is the believed in habit (of mind).
    Looking is not seeing. Looking is someone looking. Seeing is not limited to the eyes or instruments of seeing. The power of cognition is not in the body or mind. It is not personal.
    Only in (and AS) that naked seeing is there a clear view. Not for someone. It is just Seeing – simply seeing – knowing.
    This is why I advise to drop the thoughts and simply ‘be the Seeing’. Everything reveals itself as ‘an appearance’ in the seeing. The seeing is the primary requisite, not only for this equation but for everything that has ever been seen or even imagined. – Imagination itself appears in the seeing.
    This is far more profound than any words can convey.
    It remains theoretical until is ‘seen’ – yet it is seen without the aid of a ‘seer’. The more we talk and conceptualize about it, the further we go from it. As a child, the naked natural state is present – it never left – it is still present – but we ignore it. We take the translating mind to be knowledge and even the knowing – but this is all conceptualization. The Knowing is the naked natural state – and to call it a state is just a way of describing it.
    It is not a state – states come and go – the natural state does not come and go. Recognize that. Stop trying to see it and simple see that this seeing is not a ‘seer’ nor a ‘thinker’. It has no localization, no point of cognition. In seeing this there is a seeing though that which was limiting the view – conceptualization. In trying to see this, exhaustion will over take you – then the seeing may be recognized as still being present, as it always is.

  56. Posted by tim on 08.08.08 10:26 pm

    “Drop the thoughts and simply be the Seeing”
    “It has no localization, no point of cognition”
    That resonates very well . Thx !

  57. Posted by Barney on 08.09.08 10:30 am

    Gilbert, is the “intelligence expressing itself here” limited to the vocabulary ‘stored’ in your mind?

    Could the same be said of mind that’s said of coffee in your podcast?

  58. Posted by gilbert on 08.09.08 12:26 pm

    Intelligence appears as everything. That activity of knowing does not require a ‘knower’.
    In ‘the appearance of things’, Intelligence has an untold number of ‘knowers’. The instrument of cognition is simply an instrument – the cognition is ‘happening’ beyond the instrument – the instrument of knowing is not the knowing. This is self-evident in the fact that the body is seen – it is an appearance – the world is an appearance. The ‘catch’ is we take ourselves to be this body (it is seemingly always here) and the assumption is that I am the ‘seer’.
    Paradoxically, the body may appear to be more permanent than the thought ‘I’.
    Both are appearances that come and go. Intelligence has NO limitations whatsoever.
    In tracing the thoughts back to where they arise from, do we encounter a ‘thinker’.
    No – space-like awareness reveals itself to be empty of a ‘cognizer’.
    Memory is what we call acquired mind. Words have been learned and intelligence uses the words. There is only ONE intelligence. It is seemingly limited by the belief in being an individual with a separate knowledge – ie. Your vocabulary may be different to mine etc.
    What made the learning possible? Intelligence. The intellect is not the intelligence. The intellect has a limited capacity. Coffee? Yeah, I like it strong. Strong is good.

  59. Posted by Barney on 08.09.08 1:14 pm

    Let’s use the example of music…

    Intelligence learns musical concepts — harmony, composition, etc. These musical concepts become acquired mind.

    When music is created, a musician ‘gets out of the way’ of the concepts and lets intelligence/presence ‘take over.’ But, it can only draw from acquired mind.

    The point being, the more ‘thoughts’ intelligence can toss into acquired mind, the more musical data is available.

    What I’m trying to get at is — thought is good, yeah? This thought has nothing to do with ego, correct?

  60. Posted by gilbert on 08.09.08 2:21 pm

    The ego is a thought – ‘me’. Thought without that ‘me’ reference is useful, even creatively so – all the ‘man made’ things around you, like the fridge, the TV, the computer, and umpteen other things, all were creative thoughts that appeared and were ‘developed’ in this presence. When thought places a limitation on ‘you’, like “I am no good” – or “I can’t get this non duality thing’ or whatever – it is a blockage – it is a ‘me’ fixation – a very limited way to be.
    We learn language and musical ‘laws’ etc – that is absorbed into the KNOWING Presence.
    It is useful. What you ARE has never left THIS presence. It is ALL Presence.
    The memories from childhood are ‘presence’. ‘Time’ does not divide this Presence.
    Everything is contained in this PRESENCE – it is eternal – not the concept of eternal – the ACTUAL Eternal Presence. You are THAT (without the ‘you’).
    I call THIS Un-mediated and Immediate Knowing of ‘your own’ True Nature. It is empty like the sky.
    That is IT – nothing takes over – You are THAT intelligence energy – the Activity of Knowing.
    Where is the doubt? It arises in the mind – See it for what it is. Full Stop (period).

  61. Posted by Barney on 08.09.08 2:55 pm

    This may have been a knockout blow…

    You’re talking about the space/awareness that’s always here? That ‘fills the space’ in and through our eyes, head and the rest of it?

  62. Posted by gilbert on 08.09.08 4:29 pm

    Yes – what is the first thing you see?
    Is it not space?
    The eyes themselves are appearing in space.
    Even ‘space’ is an appearance – it appears in or on awareness – space is no thing, nothing, and you cannot see space, yet it is seen. How? – By what the Dzogchen teaching calls ‘cognizing emptiness’ – THAT is No Thing – ‘space-like awareness’ – Emptiness suffused with the capacity of Knowing.
    (This seeing is not personal seeing – it is prior to the personalizing, the translations of mind – which are also an ‘appearance’ on (or in) awareness.)
    This is an introduction to your own true nature – extremely efficient and direct – ‘direct’ and ‘immediate’ because you are THAT.

    ‘We’ are so habitually attracted to ‘objects’.
    The first pattern you see is the nose, the body. These patterns, all patterns of energy, appear in that space-like awareness. Simply explore that space where you are seeing from. See if you can truly find a ‘point of cognition’.
    Reference points will arise – see them. The only ‘place’ they are seen from is from beyond them. Another reference point may form, see it for what it is. Go back….back……until all that is left is SEEING.
    Here be the true nature.
    Know it as what you are.
    End of game. Fin.

  63. Posted by tim on 08.10.08 4:27 pm

    “End of game. Fin. Next Please”
    Well said !
    Now to put it to practice ! How?

  64. Posted by gilbert on 08.10.08 4:57 pm

    It is NOT a practice – a practice is in time – THIS is immediate – SEEING is immediate – everything is contained in the SEEING. There is NO time in the actual functioning of pure SEEING. It is immediate and nothing but immediate.
    It NEVER moves away into ‘time’. See that, recognize that fact for yourself.
    Mind is time – and there is no use in trying to use the mind to achieve THIS immediate seeing – this actuality.
    That ‘trying’ can only ever be a conceptual construction – a conceptual construction cannot see – so the whole exercise is totally unachievable (by anyone).
    The instruction is: Drop the concepts and just BE – See.

    What practice do you have to do to BE? Seeing is already happening.
    Where does the idea of it having to be a practice come from – it arises in the mind – an appearance – see that that arising concept is contained in the SEEING. Seeing this, the belief automatically drops away. SEE that ‘dropping away’ in the immediacy and what was believed is totally overturned.
    Being IS. ‘Becoming’ NEVER is the actuality.
    This is all far too simple for the complexities of the mind. All the mind has is a conceptual past (memory) and a conceptual future – along with a vague idea about the present, which it avoids as often as possible.
    The ‘present’, THIS immediacy is not in ‘time’. All I can do is point at THIS actuality – and if a resonance with that pointing arises in being, then intelligence itself may well ‘rise up’ and reveal the errors of belief. ‘No one’ does this nor can someone ‘do’ this. It is the natural state, which everyone seems to ignore. Stop ignoring it. It is wordless being. Silent understanding. No one can give it to you. Neither reason nor logic will reveal it. It is prior to the mind. There is no separation. What is it that prevents the seeing of THIS actuality? Surely it must be some sort of fixation with thought. Drop thought for just a moment and SEE. At first that ‘space-like awareness’ is very subtle and easily missed and we jump straight back into thought patterns. Drop it and SEE.

  65. Posted by Barney on 08.10.08 5:55 pm

    ‘Personal pronouns’ are “part and parcel” to the construct of language — which is thought. Thought being synonymous with conceptuality.

    Language arising in ‘awareness’ really, really feels like toy blocks painted with letters.

    That being ‘said’ — Gilbert, thank ‘you’ for ‘your’ help.

    It’s difficult to ‘think/speak’ as everything that’s spoken of is not it… ‘It’ being THIS no-thing presence-awareness.

    Thought arises ‘in an attempt’ to ‘stake claim’ on “this” — yet ‘some no-thing’ or ‘thought’ itself (masquerading) struggles to remain vigil… “You feelin’ me?”

    Language seems so inadequate.

  66. Posted by tim on 08.10.08 7:45 pm

    Where does confirmation (of this realisation) come from?
    Does it come from the mind. By comparing ?
    You speak with conviction ? From where does it arise, if not from the bulk of acquired knowledge? How to differentiate? So that you do not fall back in the mind with all its certainties and arrogance (speaking from personal experience)?

  67. Posted by gilbert on 08.10.08 8:39 pm

    From where? It IS Intelligence – it is ALL intelligence. When the intelligence does not have to pass through the ‘me’ idea – it flows more cleanly and directly.
    What substance can any confirmation have? There is no need of confirmation. Knowing is the confirmation (if you insist on one)
    I am THAT. Any other confirmation would only be a concept – Being is Being.
    The mind cannot give or take away from THAT – because the mind is contained in THAT.
    Acquired knowledge is memory and memory is actualized by knowing – it is all presence appearing to ‘re-appear’ as presence. – It is ALL presence.
    Intelligence energy is THIS singular Essence – this One without a second.
    If you ‘start’ in the mind, with a concept, ‘you’ are off track.
    How many times does it have to be told – Drop thought – Full Stop – There is NO answer in the mind.
    Why is that so difficult? Is it something fearful to do?
    “Am I so enmeshed in the conceptual ‘me’ that there is no escape from its hold?”
    The ‘me’ is nothing but a concept – it has NO power of itself. It is not separate or independent of the SEEING – the KNOWING – the essential nature of what I am.
    The concept of ‘I am’ is just an appearance.
    Start from the fact that you ARE THIS living presence – I am the immediacy of THIS un-mediated KNOWING. A concept simply appears and disappears in THAT. Have you known anything other than appearances and disappearances? Only this immediate KNOWING ‘remains’ – whatever happens.
    There is no separation (except an apparent separation – a concept). You cannot slip the thinnest cigarette paper between what you truly ARE and what you think you are.
    Yet one of these is only an appearance – an appearance in the other.
    Can you choose which one you wish to be? No, There is no choice, only in belief.
    You can never be a concept – even though you may have believed that you are a concept “for so long” (time – and mind is time) – Concepts come and go (time) – you remain (timeless) – do you not see that fact? Have you ever drifted away from being? – Except conceptually – what ‘story of my drifting away’ can be told outside of THIS immediacy?
    This presence is the most blazingly obvious fact. It is the mind that fluctuates not ‘Being’.
    The mind will appear to hold ground until it is seen through – be assured of this:
    Every thing is an appearance – it is One Essence – appearing as things – they have no power of themselves.
    What you are is THAT ONE. Start from that fact – (As Bob Adamson puts it so potently) “The only fact you are absolutely certain of – is the fact of your own being”.

    The conflict will dissolve all by itself. – The only time anything can happen is NOW.

    P.S. From a limited perspective, many of the things expressed may appear to be arrogant – It is not an attitude that is being expressed here – it is from this direct knowing.
    People love ‘IF’ – If that famous GOD were to suddenly appear and start talking with unheard of confidence – who would point the finger and say “Arrogant”?

  68. Posted by Barney on 08.11.08 10:27 am


  69. Posted by tomvds on 08.11.08 3:59 pm

    It’s a darkness and an unawareness.

  70. Posted by tomvds on 08.12.08 6:25 am

    Yet “facing the yellow flowers, It functions !”

  71. Posted by gilbert on 08.12.08 9:20 am

    However you describe it – it is not the description. THAT contains all descriptions, well defined descriptions and also all the obscure ramblings of an idiot. No description (the expression in time) ever reaches back and captures its own source (the timeless).
    No reflection in a mirror ever jumped out of the mirror. All of the words throughout ‘all time’ can never amount to anything but expressions – Knowing is prior to them all.
    Be this knowing, knowingly – that is all that is seemingly required – and yet it is already so – but not as a ‘person’ in a mind – as Being, it is so. No matter what thought you have, it cannot add or take away anything from BEING. Rest in and as that being.

  72. Posted by Randall Friend on 08.12.08 9:52 am

    No matter where we look, what we say or do, what we read, what we hear, where we stand, what we believe, who we ask or what spiritual progress we make…

    No matter what happens (in appearance), it is only a representation, or a translation, an “image”… there is not one “thing” that can bring us what we seek. Never.

    This “person” we’ve taken ourselves to be is part of that appearance, which we’ve tried to build up, to constantly project, to defend…

    So we fall into the chasm, into the abyss of nothingness, of not-knowing… of not ever EVER being able to see or find or discover or describe or figure out the answer, of not EVER having any word or concept or belief to give us what we seek.

    And in this moment of helplessness, when we’ve FINALLY seen that everywhere we’ve EVER turned has failed, that everything we’ve EVER done has failed to bring the answer, bring the Truth…. there is a simple looking, a looking without words, without the blanket of concepts and beliefs, without relying on the mind’s interpretations… an openness to anything. We don’t care WHAT it is, we just want, once and for all, to know the Truth.

    In this looking, it is seen that what you truly ARE is not to be found IN the appearance, as a separate “thing”, not even this “body-mind”…. in this looking, it is seen that what you truly ARE is the very Light BY WHICH the appearance is illuminated, THAT IN WHICH the appearance happens, THAT which is the changeless background against which all changes happen.

    This light of seeing/knowing, this ever-present Presence of awareness, is undeniable, inescapable, unavoidable… all “things” come and go in it, yet the seeing/knowing never changes.

    It is simply recognized that THAT is what I ALREADY am and have “always” been. It is simply seeing the false as the false, seeing that the appearance itself is nothing BUT change, and that change can only be recognized against a changeless background.

    Are you presently aware? Are you reading these words? Hearing sounds? Awareness is there, NOW! Doesn’t the body and mind/thoughts appear IN or TO THAT? Don’t all the words and concepts and beliefs and translations and situations of “good and bad” and thoughts about an “I” who “hasn’t yet figured this out” – don’t ALL these appear IN THAT?

    Hasn’t THAT always been present? Do you have to meditate to find it? Doesn’t this awareness even witness the coming and going of Consciousness?

    WITH WHAT are you knowing this “human experience” right NOW?


  73. Posted by tomvds on 08.12.08 11:48 pm

    It appears as though there are appearances and there is Awareness in which it takes place. And there is comfort in that. But then on closer investigation there is nothing separate from this Awareness and appearances and Awareness are inseparable, You cannot get a sheet or even a foil of gold with a thickness of 1 Angstrom in between those two. So then we’ve come full circle. The appearances are Awareness wich is just as valid as saying they are simply themselves as they always were. Nothing changed. Nothing gained, nothing lost. There is actually no Awareness that’s aloof or not involved, because that’s dual. There is no place to hide, It just all plays out and that’s that. There is just the “human experience” and that’s that. And if it’s good then it’s good, And if it’s bad then tough titties. No?

  74. Posted by gilbert on 08.13.08 12:36 am

    Yes – Everything is THAT. Awareness is everything and everything is awareness appearing to be this and that – yet the core of all conflicting evidence is Duality – appearance.
    There can never be any duality in Non Duality. See that ‘if’ there is a belief happening, a belief in (the mirage) of being a separate ‘me’, an ‘entity’, then the psychological suffering which plays itself out in that is an unnecessary conflict – a dis-ease in being – (we all know that) that conflict hangs around a lot longer if it is believed in – added to with a ‘story’ about ‘me’. The ‘quickness’ of seeing it for what it is, is not relying on the slow time bound processes of the mind – reaction. ‘Seeing’ is ONLY ever (in and as) this immediacy – THIS instant.
    If you truly look (see) within THIS immediacy of ‘clear and present evidence’, you cannot truly find a ‘me’ – you only find concepts, stories arising in this presence.
    In seeing that idea of a ‘me’ for what it is, isn’t it seen from ‘outside’, from beyond the time bound story? – In seeing it clearly for what it is, the ‘story’ loses its hard nosed ground – neither the past nor the future are NOT this actuality, this immediate living presence – they are appearances only (no substance). ‘Someone’ in psychological pain may twitch and react quickly to deny the truth of this – that is bondage.
    This immediate presence is not in some ‘time realm’ – Looking in and from THIS presence (at any moment of so-called time) the past is merely a memory and the future is simply an anticipation. Is that recognized clearly? Where is it recognized from? It must and can only be recognized from THIS presence and from nowhere else. Memory cannot ‘see’, know or understand anything.
    The anticipation cannot ‘see’, know or understand anything – only presence is the immediate seeing, knowing and understanding – being-presence.
    We may tell endless stories about these two conceptual ‘things’, the past and the future – but the only ‘time’ that the story can be told is in THIS immediacy. The actuality is NOW – why ‘seemingly’ give it up for a memory or an anticipation? And ‘who’ is it all happening to? You can apply this ‘equation’ at any moment. Whatever is revealed as an answer to these questions – they are simply transitory patterns appearing and disappearing. What is the witness of it all?

  75. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.13.08 4:18 pm

    “Everything is Clear and Obvious” – probably the best title for a non-duality book I’ve seen.
    In this open view, where everything is clear and obvious, it is seen that every impression, every thought, every feeling, registers for no-one.
    There is nothing to ‘get’ from the ‘teaching’ for two reasons: 1) you already are what you are seeking and 2) there’s no-one there to possibly ‘get’ anything that could be imagined to have. Now for a little less direct pointing for those who gloss over the above: you’re on this page for a reason–yes? You’re tired of seeking and tired of suffering? Identifying as a suffering person logically leads that suffering person to find some relief. Maybe forcibly thinking positive or spiritual thoughts to mask the negative ones have helped? Maybe resisting negative thoughts have helped? Realize that everything is free to come and go in what you are. Clinging to any thought or resisting any thought leads to the same result–conflict and suffering for that believed in person. When it’s really seen that all impressions are registering for no-one, there is no effort to dispel negative thoughts or cling to positive ones–the natural tendency and ‘pull’ is for these thoughts to come and go on their own accord. And no, you don’t evolve into a wooden dummy, get amnesia, appear lobotomized, or have fits alternating between mania, depression, and devout silence when this is seen. You don’t become anything. You already are. Why be afraid to look? You’ll still be able to listen lovingly to your girlfriend as she tells her stories, you’ll still be able to work, you’ll still be able to balance your stock portfolio, you’ll still be able to play the guitar for hours on Saturday afternoons….what is the purpose of your resistance? To keep suffering?

  76. Posted by tomvds on 08.14.08 7:39 pm

    I like this quote from Bob

    “We are That, ‘That’ meaning the seeming place in awareness where awareness shines out. But in ignorance of the true nature, That we are, that seeming place in awareness is called me or I”. – ‘Sailor’ Bob Adamson”

    The ‘light’ seems to emanate from where I once tought ‘I’ was. The image I took myself to be has vanished and now there is only openness. It has no name, no age or gender. It cannot be grasped or located though it seemingly has a location. There are only the appearances appearing but now they have a quality of ‘light’ that give them a ‘sameness’. Just pictures in a movie and obscure ramblings of an idiot appear as ‘I’ write these words ;-)

  77. Posted by Ralph on 08.15.08 3:20 pm

    After this final AHA !! moment is realized……. is it over ? really is it over?

    or…. is there more ? such as …

    “embrace and be present with what still has a hold on you ”

    if yes, then its not over til its over …..yes?

  78. Posted by gilbert on 08.15.08 4:52 pm

    It never began, so how can it be over? And for whom could it be over? Who is going to embrace what? Such ‘Satsang’ rubbish is utter nonsense and is kindergarden spirituality. The ‘me’ has no power to see or know anything – in the ‘seeing through’ of the appearance of this concept of ‘me’ – the seeing does not change. The seeing right now is THAT which contains everything. It is One without a second.
    All of our postulations amount to nothing. Nothing compounds into anything with any lasting substance in this immediate Seeing – in this immediate Knowing. The mind adds a ‘time realm’ of past, present and future, and all of these can be recognized as having no existence, except as a concept appearing in THIS ‘Now’.
    Mind gymnastics will ‘eventually’ tire you out. Exhaustion may just be what is needed – for the mind. Seeing and Knowing are present, no matter what is appearing in the mind or body. The mind and body both ‘appear’ in the seeing-knowing.

  79. Posted by Ralph on 08.15.08 6:01 pm

    Gilbert, you speak from the ‘absolute’ point of view, there is no argument there but
    from most seekers point of view, what you say is ‘absolute’ rubbish, such utter nonsense. (although true).

    Gilbert, I agree with you totally but don’t you agree that from most seekers point of view, many will not understand what you are saying. Geez !, I mean how many years have you been on the spiritual path before the seeing was seen by ‘no one’ ?
    Come on Gilbert, lighten up ! Speaking ‘solely’ from the ‘absolute’ will not cut it .

    Thats all, no harm done :)

  80. Posted by audrey on 08.15.08 6:51 pm

    re ‘Speaking ‘solely from the ‘absolute’ will not cut it’….Gilbert, don’t you dare speak from anything else (even if you could). There is already enough to trap (the seeker) if that’s what’s wanted. Audrey – x

  81. Posted by Ralph on 08.15.08 7:03 pm

    oops ! that last sentence was not intended to come out that way.. sorry

    Audrey … you are correct. You can disregard that last sentence.

  82. Posted by gilbert on 08.15.08 7:19 pm

    What will not cut what? What we are talking about HERE is Non Duality.
    There is no ‘me’ that has a point of view at all.
    That is all mind games. Play them if you want but they won’t cut even ‘hot butter’.
    You ignore the absolute ‘point of view’ and that is your trouble. ‘You’ personalize everything and then complain.
    There is ONLY ONE SEEING happening. It is happening through what you call ‘you’ and everyone else. Everything is contained in the SEEING. That is not some high and mighty attitude speaking. It is the VERY thing that does CUT it – it cuts it all – every binding thing falls away. Why should ‘I’ join the lost ones and talk crap? Direct pointing is the very thing that will pull the ‘lost one’ out of mind games. But it has to be ‘heard’. Who is it that is worried about ‘most seekers’? What about you – get this clear and then you will know what to do about ‘most seekers’. This is clear HERE and talking dualistic nonsense about embracing ‘things’ is not direct pointing – it is guru crap talk – a cope out. Then they expect you to kiss their bloody feet. What a load of seeker bullshit. Once upon a time, ‘I was lost in seeking’ – Someone pointed the way out of it and I recognized it – not as a concept – as a direct SEEING of the truth of it. That one was Bob Adamson – He did not ask me to embrace anything – He just quietly pointing out the errors of ‘my thinking’. THIS works, while a thousand other ‘ways’ don’t work. You imagine that you choose which way you want to go. Then you complain about someone speaking from the absolute point of view. There is NO duality in Non Duality. Full Stop.

  83. Posted by Donald on 08.16.08 3:29 am

    Once there was a man who had lost his car keys.
    It was on a dark night and he was searching just under a street light.
    Someone happened by and offered to help, so they both looked and looked.
    Finally the second man said. ” We have spent so much time looking here and found nothing, are you sure this is where you lost them?”
    To which the second man replied. “I have no idea where I lost them, I am looking here because this is the only place there is any light. ha ha
    I’m this man, looking and seeking with the only light I know.
    I am truly grateful for the posts being made here. I read them with heartfelt interest.
    When the notion to stop seeking arises in me, the question comes “How Then?”

  84. Posted by gilbert on 08.16.08 10:08 am

    No ‘how’ or ‘why’ – just stop – drop thought – See – Know. You are truly already what you seek. Recognition is of that which is (was) already cognized in the ‘first instant’ of BEING.

  85. Posted by Ralph on 08.16.08 11:07 am

    I read this piece from Alan Stoltz’s website: I thought you might enjoy reading it as I did:

    “All right, so I’m Awareness”, you might say, “so what!” … So what? So what? It’s a massive “In-sight”! It’s a massive Recognition! Ontologically, it’s Huge! It’s hugely Huge! It’s Enormous! It’s massively hugely Enormous! You’ve gone from thinking you’re a tiny, ephemeral bio-mechanical human psychological “thing” in the universe, to seeing experientially that you’re essentially the Unchanging, Timeless, Formless, Limitless Essence, the Core, the Self, the Beingness that is the Heart of all beings throughout all Space and Time. “I am the ‘One Self’ in all beings”, as those that “See” say. This is hardly a small matter! For goodness sake! Sheesh!

    “Well, OK”, you may continue, “But this Realisation doesn’t seem to do a lot for me, really. My humanness still bothers and bugs me. I still feel somewhat oppressed by personal-identity. I still feel as if I’m a “person”, basically. Besides, I want some joy and bliss from spiritual Realisations – not mere cold, admittedly undeniable, facts about what it is I really, really am at Heart.” I’m inclined to say in response, “Join the club, buddy (buddy-ess)!” For me this Realisation wasn’t particularly “Huge!” to begin with, either. But, as they say, from little things great things grow! Or, putting it another way, there is the superficial and the depths of the deeper sublime! And if we give our time and attention to It, to frequently seeing that which It is that we truly, truly already(!) are – Awareness! – in due course we will come to appreciate the immense significance of this Realisation and may even find that we are tempted to use words such as “Huge!” and “hugely Huge!” ourselves. If we can actually be bothered, that is, to “stay with” and “steep in” that which we know to be Eternally true. Namely, this “Here-Now-Awareness” that we always and obviously undeniably are – right now, in fact!

    “Why is it that I feel so strongly that what I am is a ‘person’, rather than this ‘Here-Now-Awareness’ which, checking the facts, I obviously am. Golly! Yes, I suppose I am! Got a little ‘satori’ there, perhaps. Mmm!” Good for you! Told you it gets better and clearer as time goes on! Get the essential “Basic Recognition” first, and it’s like taking the ‘good seed’ from stony ground and planting it in good fertile soil. And if one then feeds and waters the ‘good seed’ with much “steeping and abiding in Awareness” the “Basic Recognition” deepens in due course to “Deep Recognition”. And then, I think, we might find that the spiritual Realisation rather than being “cold” gives us an ever-present joy beyond words. “Invoke Often”, as an ancient text says!

    As to why the sense of being a “person” is so strong for many of us? … It’s called “conditioning”, old bean! It’s a trick done with mirrors, essentially, from one way of looking at it. That face you see every morning in your bathroom mirror has in a certain sense ‘come out’ from the mirror and possessed this ‘Central Awareness’ that you really, truly are. This has all happened in the mind, of course. And in the mind, because of this face ‘coming out’, a strong “complex” has been formed which the sense-of-identity has become fixed on, you see. It’s a type of trick, really! Many tricks are done with mirrors, after all. And all this started in early childhood, encouraged and confirmed by everyone around you. The whole of society has been brain-washed and tricked by this “basic delusion”, which is the kernel and keystone of the human condition. Everyone affirms and augments each other in each other’s “personhood”. It’s an unintentional and unconscious conspiracy, in a sense, to keep the “complex” of wrong-identity alive and strong. In a sense, the “person-complex” is like a “mask” (persona) which masks and obscures this ‘Central Awareness’ that we actually are. However, all falsehoods if looked at and analysed deeply enough break down and dissipate. And if we understand how the trick of “personal-identity” or “face-identity” works, and couple this understanding with the practice of “steeping and abiding in and as Awareness”, the art of which we learned from the essential of “Basic Recognition”, we’re no longer outside the ‘Sanctuary’, but rather we’re in and soon enjoying its fruits and flowers and its lasting Beatitude – ‘True Identity’!

    Some people may get ‘flowers’ and ‘delights’ of various sorts, or even the clear continuous Knowledge (Beatitude) of ‘True Identity’ pretty soon after “Basic Recognition – and if you’re one of those types, lucky you! For most of us, however, the pot doesn’t boil immediately, so to speak. One has to keep it on the heat and keep the temperature up by “steeping and abiding in and as Awareness”, in this Unchanging, Timeless, Limitless, Formless and ‘Open Space’ of Self that is always here – which is precisely, to repeat the point, this Open “Here-Now-Awareness” which we all actually already are right now! And, of course, now (hopefully!) you don’t have to believe that you are this Open “Here-Now-Awareness” Self, you see the truth of it experientially and understand its immense significance! And if you do, you’ve got “Basic Recognition”. “Golly!” I should think so too! “Golly!” indeed!

    “A”, June 2004

  86. Posted by David on 08.16.08 3:47 pm

    Non-Conceptual Awareness.

    The text copied from that website above is conceptualizing. The mind coming in through the back door. Mind cannot deal with no-thing. Recognize the manifestation as not separate. There is no duality in non-duality.

    Stop talking and thinking and there is nothing you will not be able to know.

  87. Posted by tomvds on 08.16.08 7:45 pm

    Speaking relatively there is a noticably difference, no? Between let’s say Ramana Maharshi and ‘most people'; the latter could be discribed as being translucent as “letting light pass through, but not transparent.” ?

    As Arjuna Ardagh puts it:
    “Translucent people also appear to glow from the inside. They have access to their deepest nature as peaceful, limitless, free, unchanging, and at the same time they remain fully involved in the events of their personal lives. Thoughts, fears, and desires still come and go; life is still characterized by temporary trials, misfortunes, and stress. But the personal story is no longer opaque: it is now capable of reflecting something deeper, more luminous and abiding, that can shine through it.”

    But I suppose that’s an imagined outside view (and mistaking the content of one’s life with the capacity in wich it appears), while the lived immediate view is that of Awareness ‘in wich’ anything can be reflected without distorting It. In the first instant there is no story of a defective person?

    Anyway, Gilberts response “Posted by gilbert on 08.13.08 12:36 am” is very clear on that.Thx

  88. Posted by audrey on 08.16.08 7:46 pm

    Bliss can be as simple as the body breathing an unbidden sigh of relief, unbidden being the key. Why further feed the mind with ideas of what might be missing.

  89. Posted by tomvds on 08.16.08 10:06 pm

    The apparent ‘problem’ in finding This is; It doesn’t draw any attention to itself. It is only receiving ?

  90. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.16.08 10:21 pm

    Let me comment on the thought process above with some extremely liberal paraphrasing: “I’m starting to get this stuff…I know that I’m Awareness…I’m pretty sure there’s no becoming and I am what I am but I just don’t see it clearly…Then there’s this guy Ramana who I know OF who is a holy character and I want to be like him…”
    You can see for yourself ‘the wanting to get it’ and then the ‘fleeing back to the miserable comfort of being a seeking person’ who might one day be translucent like Ramana.
    Ramana and your story of Ramana are just appearances that are appearing in Awareness; something you have never been separate from. You don’t know OF Ramana (as in I am over here and this Ramana or Ramana legacy exists over there). The story being told of Ramana appears in what you are.
    What does it matter if you seemingly gain the world, all the money, all the women OR have the worst of luck. What can you say about yourself in either circumstance?
    Oh, there’s a great experience happening! Oh, there’s a horrible experience happening! Don’t ever forget the little copyright symbol that’s there for every experience “Brought to you by non-conceptual awareness”

  91. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.16.08 10:39 pm

    Hi Areti ! Thank you for all the work you do on the site; the MP3’s are great and so are the discussions ! I’ll bet as popular as this Stephen Wingate guy is, judging from the ~90 posts, that people would like to see a transcript of this Part 2 session. Is that possible?

  92. Posted by tomvds on 08.17.08 12:20 am

    Yes, Kimo(Jim) you are right in your own way, and that’s fine.
    The question really is, what Ramana puts to us, with some paraphrasing:
    “WHO ARE YOU talking to????”
    If this really hits home then you are in a listening-mode a receiving mode.
    Then you simply cannot be entranced by your own conceptual overlay.
    As G. puts it, this is not about a high and mighty attitude!(Posted by gilbert on 08.15.08 7:19 pm)
    Anyway you should maybe check-out http://www.thework.org, it’s great!

  93. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.18.08 1:51 am

    Hi Tomvds, thanks for the link but didn’t load; even without the comma. Maybe I just can’t access at this time. Anyway, no need to bump around all over the place to realize your true nature. This second track by Stephen has a record number of comments! Funny though, after listening last night to Part I, I like Part I better. Very clear, practical applications for ‘somebody who is ready’. I love the part where he says to ask if awareness is present and then even if the answer is ‘maybe’ or ‘no’, that ‘maybe’ or ‘no’ still registers. And it ain’t registering in a ‘person’. Awareness, effortless, timeless, the foundation of all.

  94. Posted by David on 08.18.08 6:47 am

    That link is actually thework.com not .org.

    I checked it out. Looks like it deals more with the body-mind, relationships, etc. No criticism there, I’m sure it works great for the people who like it and use it. It’s all fine and has it’s place but is not what is being ‘addressed’ here. Like Nisargadatta would say when people would come to him with worldly matters: “I don’t deal with body-mind.”

    It looks like Byron Katie is one of the many whom has made a lucrative business as have Gangaji, Tolle, and others with similar teaching, touring, etc. Nothing ‘wrong’ there, part of the appearance of what is. I spent a lot of money and time with retreats, worships, seminars, etc. and even paid a hefty fee to see Eckhart Tolle speak for 2 hours when he was at the UCLA campus for a speaking engagement. His ‘teaching’ was very valuable for me when ‘I’ first discovered Advaita/Non-duality after having been in the Santo Daime religion for 7 very strenuous years of ‘spiritual practice.’

    The direct pointing here with Gilbert, Randall, Sailor Bob, Stephen W. is available for those who have ‘the ear’ to hear it, if not, where you are and what you’re doing is fine because there is no ‘you’ doing anything anyway.

    Everything appears in YOUR LIGHT, whether it be traveling many miles and paying a hefty fee for a workshop or sitting right where you are and reading one sentence of direct pointing.

  95. Posted by gilbert on 08.18.08 9:56 am

    Yes – One Essence, expressing and appearing AS Everything. No separation.
    Thought actually cannot separate anything except itself and that is only in the ‘appearances of things’. Knowing this simple fact is enough. The self-centered activity of ‘me’ actually knows nothing at all. It is all ‘made’ of appearances. There is ONLY One Knowing happening and that is not concerned with the knower or the known. It is actually ever fresh – naked awareness – no self can be found in it. – That is why the seeker misses the actuality – because it is merely a thought – it has no power of cognition whatsoever – the thought that it has some power is just another thought which is believed in – it is believed in because it has never been closely examined – in looking at it, it dissolves.
    P.S. ‘The Work’ implies ‘someone who can do’, does it not? – The essence of the necessary insight is ‘SEEING’ – and this SEEING is effortless and already happening. Recognition arises in the Seeing, nowhere else. The merry go round ride of doing ‘work’ on oneself is just psychological nonsense but there are always ‘fees’ to pay to ‘someone’. Business is business.
    Who’ is it that needs to change? The psychological display is an endless array of changing patterns – none of it has any permanency at all (thank heavens).
    SEEING is the key that is overlooked by ‘almost everyone’. All that can be done is to ‘point’ out the essential factors, over and over. Recognition happens but it does not come about due to the efforts of ‘someone’ doing ‘work’. Neither seeing nor knowing are the ‘result’ of any effort made by anyone.

  96. Posted by audrey on 08.18.08 8:08 pm

    …’in looking at it, it dissolves’ just like a snowflake falling on water and then another thought, I AM THE WATER. (appearing as) Just another snowflake.

  97. Posted by tomvds on 08.19.08 8:13 pm

    Byron Katie’s work works because it comes out of the ‘perspective’ of “You are not in the world, The world appears in YOU”.

  98. Posted by gilbert on 08.19.08 11:29 pm

    If it works then why are you still seeking?
    Nothing ever comes out of a perspective.
    A perspective is simply a ‘point of view’.
    Non Duality is not a ‘point of view’. The sum of all points of view is not equal to Naked Awareness or SEEING – all points of view are inclusive within SEEING and seeing is knowing. There is no point of view outside of seeing. Be the seeing.
    What ‘work’ do you have to ‘do’ in order that you can SEE? None whatsoever.
    P.S. ‘People’ get very protective of their favorite ‘method’ and throw a tantrum if it is questioned or discarded as being erroneous. The point is: If any method simply keeps you engaged in ‘time’ and does not reveal ‘THIS clear and clean, direct and immediate presence-awareness’, then it is ‘the roundabout’. To remain in a state of seeking is tedious and tiresome to say the least – and it is unnecessary. But getting ‘someone’ as a ‘someone’ to see past their habitual mind content is impossible – because the SEEING is actually ‘prior’ to the mind’s content. There is no ‘someone’ in THAT Seeing.
    Don’t take my word for it – “Is it true – is it really true?” See for yourself. Taking the words of ‘teachers’ as Gospel is not going to do it for you. Endless psychological games, no matter how intricate they may be, is just mind stuff. Hang onto it if you must – but don’t come complaining that you can’t get out of it. You have been told – the answer is not in the mind. Still, that is where everyone gravitates over and over.

  99. Posted by Sergio on 08.20.08 9:37 am

    All is fine… in the appearance. I also did it, ‘The Work’ for a considerable time….

    Now there is no need or power to those things.

    All can point to That.

  100. Posted by Sergio on 08.27.08 5:55 am

    Hi. Seems all can help. If there is no duality in non duality, all is included.

    Psychologists included.

  101. Posted by tomvds on 08.30.08 11:16 pm

    Well in fact It’s enquiry, with open questions. How can you take that as Gospel if there’s nothing to hold on? It seems to work for apparent people.Ofcourse there is no end to this enquiry until you ask the final question: “Who Am I?”

    But take this from the Gospel: “He who lives by the sword will die by the sword” This old saying seems to apply to Katie’s Work; If you are suffering, then that’s an opportunity to look at your thoughts and judgements of other people/situations and to see how your own unexamined beliefs make you suffer.
    As you quoted : “Nothing is good or bad but thoughts that make it so”.

  102. Posted by gilbert on 08.31.08 1:09 am

    Yes. Make the final question the first question and then ask ‘who’ is asking the question?
    As Bob Adamson so directly pointed out to me when I ‘finally’ found my way to his meetings – “The questioner is the question”. They are both appearances in mind.
    As Ramana Maharshi says: (paraphrasing a bit here) “You ARE the Unlimited Being.
    (One without a second) Then you place limitations upon yourself through a belief in being a limited creature.
    Then you create methods and practices to escape those limitations.
    But if these methods and practices IMPLY those very limitations – HOW can they free you from them?” I love that quote because it pulls the rug out from beneath many gurus and teachers. It demolishes ‘the guru game’ – yet, not surprisingly, very few mention that quote. Ramana’s photo sits quietly next to them on their podium, next to a vase of Poppies, as they instruct their devotees of so many methods and practices, things that they must do, year after year, to find self-liberation. It is more like a prison than a place of liberation.
    Self-liberation actually MEANS the liberation from believing that I am a ‘self-center’ – a self.

  103. Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 08.31.08 8:13 pm

    My last post got erased, but I’ll try again. Stephen’s invitation to ask if there is awareness is great–an answer may arise–“yes, no, or maybe”. All of those answers register instantly in awareness; confirming awareness. All there is is Awareness. You are not a person who has awareness, nor, even more subtly, are you something or “that which is aware”–still implying an entity who is in an “absolute state”. There’s no faceless character or reference point in emptiness that is aware. Very few want to hear this message. Still fewer of those ever want to depart from a spiritual self-image or mastery of non-duality philosophy. BTW, there’s no “chunk of awareness” assigned to your body that suffers changes due to the changes in the body–all talk of losing consciousness in death or deep sleep and being present at that time as non-being versus the being you are used to in wakefulness is just philosophical drivel. It doesn’t get you any closer to finishing the investigation of who you are and who you aren’t. There’s just awareness. There’s not Gilbert’s awareness, Areti’s awareness, and Kimo’s awareness. There is no state where when Kimo’s body dies, Kimo’s awareness jumps into non-being but Gilbert’s awareness and Areti’s awareness are still in the being state. There is only Awareness! Indivisible! Unchanging! The other question I get is that if this is so, and Awareness registers all, why can’t I grasp Gilbert’s thoughts? You and Gilbert do not exist as separate entities. Gilbert can’t even grasp ‘his own’ thoughts because Gilbert is just a thought and incapable of doing any grabbing or anything else for that matter. Even if it were possible, thoughts are insubstantial. Where are thoughts located? How big are they? How would one grab a thought or ‘read a mind’? As soon as “why can’t I read Gilbert’s thoughts” comes up as a question it is registered instantly in Awareness. The concept “Gilbert’s thoughts” already arose effortlessly in Awareness and then the separate entity seemingly arises wondering how it can know “Gilbert’s thought” which “belong” to “another entity” named Gilbert. It’s all complete right here right now–all your concepts of you, me, advaita, the state of the union, all the concepts about somebody else’s thoughts….

  104. Posted by Sergio on 09.02.08 9:50 am

    w o w

  105. Posted by susana on 09.22.08 4:57 am

    After listening to this talk, and the part about imagination and once you have seen that “you” only appear in the past and future and that is imagination, well it was an aha moment.
    Just like Santa Claus.
    I left my study and met a belligerent teen in the passage – there was an attempt at communication which was rejected.
    There was an immediate pull into suffering and then this knowing that this was just imagination.
    Immediately the rage, anger, concern dissipated and I continued into the garden, no effect at all.
    This has been seen.
    For that I thank you.

    Gilbert, again I thank you for this venue.

  106. Posted by gilbert on 09.30.08 12:56 pm

    Most ‘people’ don’t realize the Santa Claus in the red suit and all the red nosed deer stuff was started by Coke as an advertising prop. The Urban Guru Cafe is also a prop – but the difference is that it is not a trick of belief – It is a vehicle for direct pointing – there is a core message – extremely subtle – and many miss it – yet every now and then it ‘clicks’ for ‘someone’ and the someone disappears into this KNOWING.
    The next podcast that is due next week is extraordinary.
    The subtle pointers in that program (which I have just finished putting together) may just ‘do the job’ and a whole bunch of ‘clicks’ will turn onto a Cicada Symphony around the Globe – yet that is nothing but an inclusion in ‘the all inclusiveness’ – all in the appearance of things.
    Non Duality is complete and naturally all inclusive.
    The singular Essence of the ALL is complete just as it is. Realizing that can never be via belief or contrived mental processes. It spontaneously dawns on you and it is recognized – because we actually KNOW it, KNOW it, KNOW it, already. We actually are this KNOWING, not as an ‘I’ or ‘we’. It is indescribable and inexpressible in words. Yet words appear spontaneously also. It is a mystery in the appearance and totally simple in the actuality of presence awareness – ordinary awareness.

  107. Posted by Michele on 11.07.08 6:58 am

    A cure for what ails ya! Brilliant! Michele

  108. Posted by Jaime on 03.14.09 12:48 am

    After years of reading, etc. what a difference Stephen’s words make. I had also visited several times Stephen’s site, but listening to him is simply direct and clear. Thanks from Puerto Rico for the recording.

  109. Posted by Jesus on 06.07.09 5:29 am

    Hi everybody,..

    Well, i can see the whole thing, the sense of awareness has been in my life since i was little, actually it has been forever and will ever be, but i sensed it at an early age. However still thinking that the sense of being an entity apart from the world, a sense of individuality is inherent to the way that the human mind works. right?…still confusing me due to personal experiences. This experiencies throught me back to the idea of individual as separate entity,…this experiencies have been with me and my family since long time ago, after relatives pass away, some of us still in contact with them, I know this might be seen crazy, but i can not deny that, so that confuse me since i dont see separate individual withing awareness, however after passing away those relatives,…they seem to be “there” at the other side, we “see” them at the funeral for example,…and some other stuff i dont want to get in,..anyway…it is all crazy. so, what happen with the mind after the physical death of the body???…still within the awareness for a while??..isn’t this individuality unreal???…so how is that it survives the dead of the body??….

    Gilbert,..some words from you will help me to understand

    thank you!!

  110. Posted by gilbert on 06.07.09 8:56 am

    There is no before or after. You do not remember being born. You do not know death.
    What you are asking for……….can be explored for yourself in this immediacy……..
    It is all appearances – it is valid in the appearance – anything can appear to be…………anything at all.
    Where does it appear? That is the thing to explore.
    Everything appears in this present moment………explore it…………not in imagination.
    I grew up with psychics…….so I know the pull of such things………I see many things also………..but I don’t believe them.
    Come back to the core of your being……..everything is clear and obvious right now.
    All questions are spontaneously appearing.
    Who wants to know what?

    Knowing is all there is. The character is just a word…….a believed in form.

    Understanding is already here……..the one who wants to understand will never understand, because it is a concept of being separate.

    As the one with your name said: “I and the Father are One”.

    Listen to Bob’s interview, that latest program. He is exceptionally clear.

    All doubts fall away once you stay with the direct and immediate experiencing.