Urban Guru Cafe

Discovering what you truly are

21. John Wheeler – What is the truth of who you are – part 2 *****

Posted on 11.09.08 10:44PM under John Wheeler, Podcast

This is part two of an interview with John Wheeler recently. Many of the probing questions have been removed from the audio to allow a more even flow in John’s expression. This program picks up from the end of part one.

Music by the Beatles, John Lennon, Paul Simon, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, Gerardo Nunez, Van Morrison and John Lee Hooker, Ashkabad, Johhny Nash, Nilsson and the voice of George Harrison. Voice cut from Monty Python and a voice cut from Dan Millman’s movie based on his best selling book “The Peaceful Warrior”.

John has no website today – all contact to johnwheeler111@yahoo.com

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Read Comments

  1. Posted by gilbert on 11.09.08 10:52 pm

    Well, here it is the next installment of John Wheelers excellent offering. The three programs from John should cover most of the things that listeners are looking for. The last song on this program is for Obama, with ‘good luck and best wishes’ thrown in for good measure.
    Anyone who wishes to support The Urban Guru Cafe in its endeavor to continue providing this service can do so by the donation tab on http://www.shiningthroughthemind.net. We are not asking – just suggesting that because several have asked how they could contribute. There are umpteen costs involved in this venture and we have decided not to put a download fee on the programs because many would not know how to go about that and the spirit of the offerings is meant to be free of any fees – symbolizing the natural freedom of what we are. Conversely, anyone who wants us to shut down can send a million dollars to a specified account and we will pack up shop, el pronto. Just kidding. – Warm regards – Gilbert

  2. Posted by barry on 11.10.08 3:09 am

    ‘ Tears in my eyes. Beautiful. Thanks

  3. Posted by dorothy hoffman on 11.10.08 5:58 am

    Gilbert, There is an extremely strong urge to quit my present employment and to go for something simple and peaceful. Now the mind comes in and says how are you going to pay your bills? You will have to cut down on everything. What about this and this and this? But the urge to quit is very strong. Suffocation and oppressiveness is experienced in a controlled corporate cold office environment. There is a constant urge to break free and be happy. Not be controlled by control anymore. Of course, when questioned as to who is this identity who is suffering…there is no answer. But the urge to quit does not go away either. Is this the mind? Is it imagination? Is it incorrect to seek happiness in external circumstances such as employment? Cannot bear the corporate culture anymore….your thoughts?

  4. Posted by Michael O'Toole on 11.10.08 8:15 am

    Does being need any help? What an awesome message!
    I’m loving these podcasts.
    Much thanks Gilbert, John, Areti and to everyone involved at UGC.

  5. Posted by Sergio on 11.10.08 10:06 am

    dorothy, I´m not Gilbert, but something to say :

    You can´t stop what is happening. If the strong urge is there, something will happen.

    Are you in control of your life? who are you?

    nobody in the machine, but things still happen.

  6. Posted by gilbert on 11.10.08 10:11 am

    There is no ‘doer’ – Full Stop. That does not mean that nothing happens does it.
    All the so-called ‘events’ from subatomic up to grand scale ‘a star is born’ – ‘events’ are taking place – in the Appearance. Our description of any one of those so-called (labeled) events is just another event – is it not? Do the events stop while ‘I’ describe them? No.
    Now, at what point is it that ‘you’ entered center stage with your ‘control schedule’? Do you remember your ‘curtain call’? Was it when they cut the chord at birth and ‘you’ had to take control and take the first breath? Has it been an exhausting journey having to control the breathing since then….or to beat the heart?
    What I am getting at is that LIFE IS – life happens whether ‘you’ believe that you are controlling things or not. You have no idea what the next thought will be. Equally true is the fact that you do not know where the impulses come from to choose this over that. You may choose one option and for all the effort that one puts into a ‘controlled possible event’ the thing just does not work out. The Intelligence that runs the WHOLE universe cannot be questioned by some insignificant ‘ant’ that is plagued by doubts, one that wanders about on the surface of some remote planet in the dark corners of some galaxy on the edge of existence (that is a concept). The suffering is due to a fictional character that lives on the surface of a bubble……a bubble which SEEMINGLY isolates nothing but that fictional ‘me’ from the WHOLE. That membrane of separation is made of concepts – it cannot, CANNOT withstand any uncompromising examination – an unbiased examination reveals it is a fiction and so the bubble dissolves.
    In the most ordinary sense of day to day conversation: We were born free – then we took on the ideas of being separate – we had no choice in that either. But it does not have to be that way. Like when you wake in the morning – the dream MUST dissolve – it cannot, CANNOT exist in the waking state. Same equation with this ‘investigation’. When you see through a magician trick, it loses its entertainment, its hypnotic effect – doesn’t it? You can’t be tricked by it ever again.
    It is all simply happening. The story we tell about it is always after the fact or fanciful predictions based on memory or imagination. It is all in the appearance (Shakti dances). The knowing (that which you are) is not contained ‘in the patterns’ that appear as the dance of matter.
    We think that we are so important as that ‘me’……..’some of us’ even get the label of ‘The most powerful man on Earth’. Then we wonder why these ‘people’ get twisted up into gross examples of humanity. And we allow these ‘individuals’ to lead us into the darkest places and the most horrific crisis, all throughout our human history.
    You may be moved to leave your corporate prison – or not. It may be better to SEE THROUGH the walls of this prison and recognize that it is a projection of your own mind – and not real, not as you ‘think it is’. We are not here to advise people about life decisions – there is no doer – but a nudge in the right direction can shift the view ever so slightly. It is all concepts…….it is concepts that SEEMINGLY obscure awareness but the fact is that Awareness is never obscured by anything at all……..it is prior to all ‘things’.

  7. Posted by tomvds on 11.10.08 7:30 pm

    best radio ever ! :-)

  8. Posted by nathan on 11.10.08 9:17 pm

    “it doesn’t matter if you didn’t question it then…you can question it now.”

    there is only now. what is evident now? what is present now?

    there is no “you” in this now. look and you won’t find a thing.

  9. Posted by gilbert on 11.11.08 5:24 am

    Pure awareness needs no words. Understanding is silent. It is the mind that craves words and expects to find what it seeks in them. The three ply ‘Rope’ that binds you is called ‘ME’, ‘MYSELF” and ‘I’. It is made of words, stories and it has NO substance whatsoever.
    SEE that clearly and precisely.

  10. Posted by Manuel Martinez on 11.11.08 5:30 am

    Hi John,

    I’ve been seeing this space instead of my head (forgive my English) but the sense of “me” is still here, and everything is the same for me. What is happening? are there people in the same situation?
    Thanks from Spain,
    Manuel

  11. Posted by nathan on 11.11.08 6:27 am

    yes!

    thought IS time…thought appears to break this moment…the body appears to be in time…segmenting it. in reality this moment is never broken…time-less-ness never is not. you are not the body, you are not the mind, you are not in time. as long as it appears that there is some-one to ask the question “THIS” already “IS” … see it once and be done with it. even the most brilliant “insight” translated is not “this”. words break down, thought cannot touch it.

    p.s. huge thanks to gilbert and areti for all of these wonderful interviews, and totally uncompromising pointers! pointers ain’t it, but they are close!

    nathan

  12. Posted by Mike in SF on 11.11.08 6:44 am

    Another great, great show. You’ll have a hard time trying to top the last 5 shows.

    Mike

  13. Posted by Jodi on 11.11.08 9:22 am

    John, Gilbert, Areti,

    Absolutely brilliant!! What a gift. Thank you so much.

  14. Posted by Samuel Jenkins on 11.11.08 10:41 am

    That was a great interview indeed. The best of the 3. John Wheeler is one of the best right now. I am looking forward to Areti interviewing Gilbert. I’d love to hear that. What does Gilbert have to say about the SELF that Ramana talked about. Is that on the cards?

  15. Posted by John on 11.11.08 11:17 am

    Manuel wrote: “I’ve been seeing this space instead of my head (forgive my English) but the sense of “me” is still here, and everything is the same for me. What is happening? are there people in the same situation?”

    John: Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by “I’ve been seeing this space instead of my head”. If you are refering to the Douglas Harding pointers, that “space” is the pure, non-conceptual knowing awareness itself. There is no “you” seeing “that”. That clear, space of knowing/being is what is looking. “You” are not standing apart from that. All there is, is the seeing only. There is no other “you” in the picture “on present evidence”. The point is that that and you are not separate, but “you are that”.

    The sense of “me” is itself a notion coming and going in that space of clear knowing. Before worrying about any sense of “me” and whether such a thing is present or not, make sure the clear and positive truth of what you are is clear. If this is not really clear, any other pointer is bound to either misleading or misunderstood. This is not so much about the nature of appearances, or whether or not there is a me or not, or whether or not there is or is not suffering, etc. Those points all find a natural resolution — in clearly recognizing the positive truth of your being. Most people checking into non-duality tend to miss this key point.

    Seeing the body, mind, world and universe arising and setting in the space of your being/awareness, which remains without change, is change enough!

    The interest and belief in the notion of the separate “I” and all the other concepts and identifications based on it are undermined (because how can you be a limited, separate person if you are the space in which the entire universe appears?) The seeking, suffering and doubts are all generated through the self-centered concepts and the belief that they are your identity. By clarifying your real identity, the energy of belief cannot be sustained in these concepts and the seeking, doubt, etc., are conclusively resolved.

    If you find yourself talking about “awareness” or “space” and “me” and wondering how it all fits together, etc., then look a little more deeply into who/what you are. All the doubts are resolved that. Start with one thing you are sure of: the fact of your being. Don’t move away from that into any other concepts or side issues. What is the nature of that undeniable being that you are?

    It may be a bit hard putting this across in writing like this, so if you can speak with someone in person who has a sense of this, that may be best.

  16. Posted by gilbert on 11.11.08 11:35 am

    I have not had my morning coffee as yet.
    What does Gilbert have to say about Ramana Maharshi’s CONCEPT about the SELF?
    Gilbert says: ‘Who’ cares?
    Ramana is held up as some sort of ‘greatest guru’ of the last century.
    To be absolutely direct with you about this: It was SEEN here that everything and I MEAN Everything is an appearance in THIS indescribable spacious PRESENCE, which is labeled as ‘I am’. So, Ramana is an image and a story. I did not meet him and I have no desire to go back in ‘time’ and seek him out. The same applies to Nisargadatta or any so-called teacher. It may be a shock to hear it but the same equation applies to Bob – the very one who ‘pointed’ me to my true essence – it was recognized.
    In truly recognizing it – the recognition itself falls away and what is left is naked cognition. This was expressed in the first pages of my first book as the words “All there is is KNOWING”.
    Now, I realize that it is ‘not kool’ to place oneself as an equal with ‘the Great teachers’ but the actuality of what I am is undeniable and everything else is an appearance in THAT. There is not even a skerrick of seeking going on ‘here’ in THIS that I AM. In the scheme of things, one could say that ‘I have been moved’ to share ‘the teaching’.
    It appears that ‘I’ instigated several books on Bob Adamson’s ‘teaching’ along with several CD’s, a website and umpteen other incentives. I did not see anyone else doing very much to assist getting the message ‘out there’. Why that is, is because ‘seekers’ are self-centered creatures. They are only interested in themselves. Even the ones who go about trying to convince everyone that they are ‘finders’, the self-centered-ness is obvious. Someone has got to ‘do what needs to be done’. Areti, a good friend of mine, and I came up with this idea for the UGC. Where do ideas come from? They appear just like anything else appears. My personality has not been diminished by this revelation of KNOWING what I am. I do not have to lay around some ashram or walk around some mountain every day. EVERYONE is UNIQUE.
    “One ESSENCE expresses and APPEARS as Every-thing” – Bob says that….and it is so efficiently expressive. the sheer poetry that comes out of Bob is way out of character from the ‘man’ he was ‘before’ he recognized his true nature. When the limitations of the bondage of self are lifted off – the creative impulses flow with great ease.
    What Bob so simply points out in is weekly meetings is so radically creative and true, most miss it – they miss it because the mind is LOOKING for something, some pre-conceived concept or state of being – usually ‘enlightenment’. John Wheeler is also telling something so simply and so directly – most miss it. He lives in a place where there are more seekers than ordinary folk – but few have been open to what he is offering. Most go for the big lights and the fancy guru image. It is not their fault that they miss it. The basic equation is that we all ignore our true nature until ‘something clicks’ in us. A recognition rises up in us. The limited relative view is cracked ‘somehow’ and the light of the absolute shines through……it can ‘happen’ anywhere in ‘the relativity’ – even in the realms of some shonky guru ‘satsang’.
    The Absolute and the Relative are actually ONE and the same.
    ‘One’ can speak from the absolute or the relative without having to change ‘minds’.
    YES, it seemed like it would be hard to follow up the last 5 programs………BUT……we have something coming up that will BLOW the cobwebs out of your elbows…..and I am not kidding.
    As the clock at Bob’s Place ‘sings’ “We’ve only just begun” – The UGC has just begun – only a few months old. The rapid growth seen on the demographics is mind boggling. I had no expectations that SO MANY would actually download the programs. If only 1% of these ‘fortunate sons and daughters’ actually HEAR the so-called ‘message’ – then we may see an epidemic of FREE SPIRITS walking around this globe (some are already doing so). Yes, yes, it is just a story. ‘Don’t spoil a good story with the truth’ – the ‘moto’ of most gurus.
    We may introduce a random ‘Mince the Guru’ program just for fun.
    Well, there, I did it again. Threw another fox into the chicken coop.
    “Now listen ‘self’ repeat after ME…”…..”I, that is also me, must not make comments here on the UGC until I have had a coffee”………”Where is MY coffee?” – “Hey, what kind of Cafe is this? – The service here is hopeless …….waiter….waiter……..oh forget it.”
    “Hey, why is my personality so normal – am I not supposed to be more spiritual?”
    “Where are my shoes? – my goody goody two shoes? – Not sure they fit anymore”.

  17. Posted by Renaldo on 11.11.08 1:57 pm

    Hey Gilbert, I don’t think many here would characterize your personality as normal, my friend…

    {insert wink-smiley face here}

    Seriously though, there’s nothing we can do with the spacious awareness intelligence. It is the animating factor. A thought is animated and then run with. The running with is almost like delusion — or thought duping itself. Thought/mind wants something it can hold onto. It can’t grab this, because the thought-hand that’s grabbing is made up of it.

    This is almost jibber jabber, but it’s not intended to be. I’m not a seeker in the sense you often ridicule. Never attended satsang or the like, but I have purchased countless books on the historic study of Jesus, and other type philosophies hoping to somehow get it at some point.

    You’re talking about the non-conceptual awareness that’s always present. Why doesn’t that stick? Why always running away in mind-thought?

    Sorry for the story, but maybe as John says a conversation would help…

  18. Posted by gilbert on 11.11.08 3:51 pm

    How many are there of YOU?
    Is there a ‘me’ and an ‘I’? A big ‘I’ and a little ‘i’? A Renaldo thrown in as well?
    There is ONLY One SEEING happening. One Presence.
    The me cannot ‘see’. An idea cannot ‘see’. That is blindingly obvious but it is where almost everyone gets stuck.
    There is actually no one that runs off with or in thoughts or lost or bound up in any of the mind content.
    Such talk is only meant to make one reflect on the situation – in a manner of speaking.
    Be what you ARE. Take off the ‘me’ glasses.
    Ridicule seekers? ME? I am compassion itself.
    A mother may chastise the child out of love for the child.
    The intensity of ‘reaction’ may bring a friction or inner conflict and something may be glimpsed. All the being nice and holy in Satsang is just a mask ‘people’ wear. It is often the opposite of what it is meant to be – like a devil dressed up like a priest. Plenty of those in the NEWS broadcasts in recent years. The point is that seekers don’t need to hang around a teacher for very long – as long as the message is direct and un-compromised, it should sink in pretty quick. Then the seeker mode collapses. The normal contract a seeker ‘signs’ is all about the future, a future that can NEVER come. All revelations and realizations can ONLY ever happen in THIS moment. There is no REASON why any delay should be necessary. The delay tactics is due to the erroneous beliefs of the teacher, something that he can NEVER admit to. He is the biggest seeker of all – he seeks the attention of so many followers – and it distorts his persona to such a degree that the charade cannot be hidden from anyone that can SEE. Only the blinded believer is fooled. What is on offer here is something so radically profound and at the same time it is radically ordinary. You OWN Being. When we stop ignoring THAT – the need of a teacher is flushed away in an instant. Buying back into some compromise is not an option for the Knowing Presence. It is seen that everything is an appearance in THAT Knowing – and I am THAT (As Nisargadatta pointed out – he wasn’t talking about himself as an individual, although that is also included – without the limitations).
    Tat Twam Assi. Thou Art THAT. Where is the doubt? Only in the so-called mind can a doubt ‘appear’ TO BE.
    P.S. I do consultations on Skype. I already give a lot of time to this ‘stuff’ so there is a fee for those consultations. That keeps the ‘nutters’ away.

  19. Posted by Renaldo on 11.11.08 4:30 pm

    Whew…

    But not every goofball imbibing here of the Urban Guru Cafe has chased down a `supposed’ “guru” though?

  20. Posted by Mike in SF on 11.11.08 4:54 pm

    Dorothy,

    I relate to what you’re going through. One of the traps of the “spiritual path” is that it can cause you to delay taking appropriate action in the world while you try to get enlightened instead. I think having a job you enjoy, or at least can tolerate, is a huge part of living a contented life. I’ve had a bunch of crappy jobs. I’ve just never been very career focussed. About 3 years ago I was sick of working as an administrative assistant so I quit without any plan of what would come next. I had about 12 grand in the bank. As the money was about to dry up 5 months later, I found myself starting a new career doing A/V for meetings etc. I’m still doing that now and I actually like going to work much of the time!

    Sometimes you have to let something die completely before something new can happen. And taking some time off work is almost always a good thing.

    Mike

  21. Posted by gilbert on 11.11.08 5:07 pm

    Not every goofball: Of course not and they are the lucky ones because they have not been filled up with fanciful concepts that they need to put aside. The ‘spiritual individual’ has already amassed a ‘personal account’ with lots of investment in that ‘spiritual self-image’, I know this because that is how it was for me. ‘I was lucky’ in the fact that one of Bob’s attendee’s named John Lindland ( I am pretty sure John won’t mind being mentioned) he ‘went for the jugular’ of anyone who showed any signs of spiritual pretension. It was the most confronting thing to be faced with- and completely unexpected. There was Bob shining brightly, untouched by whatever went on in the meetings. I remember in the midst of one of these barrages, looking towards Bob with a pleading look “help me out here Bob” but Bob’s apparent ‘attitude’ was ‘deal with it’. I went home a few times with an inner turmoil worthy of a Dramatic Play. I even decided never to go back to the meetings until that guy left. But something shifted. It seems that ‘I got a glimpse’ of that ‘self-image’ that ‘I’ was so eager to protect’. Bob would not takes sides. I think that in itself was a revelation. He showed an equal openness and fondness for both of us. He never seems to entertain any concepts of blame, by the way. So, you see, I know the value of the full frontal challenge to the ‘spiritual self-image’ first hand. However confronting I may appear to be, it is faint compared to my dear friend John. I don’t know many from the Satsang arena who would sit through such a meeting, then again, I don’t know anyone from the Satsang arena who ever found the freedom they so eagerly seek. It’s all a story……it is nothing to try and copy or imitate. Everything in this manifestation, without one exception, is spontaneously expressed without a ‘doer’ behind it. I trust this little story may ring a bell in someone’s ear. There are many who could attest to those ‘good old days’ here in Melbourne. The thing is this: Just because you see through the ‘me’ does not mean that your behavior will change all that much. But the inner terrain which is invisible to the ‘outside’ is radically shifted out of ‘psychological suffering’. A simple man or woman has a better chance to see THIS (whatever you want to label it as) than the one who has invested years of practice. It is the mind that suggests that there is some value in all that laborious effort. Let it go – relax.

  22. Posted by Renaldo on 11.11.08 5:17 pm

    Not to over-post, but thank you for sharing this, G. Not that this means anything, but there’s always a gleam in Bob’s eyes that attracts. YouTube.

    (The non-phony ‘gleam’ in layman’s terms.)

    Final question: So the knowing is not the mind?

  23. Posted by gilbert on 11.11.08 7:40 pm

    No – the KNOWING is Everything – ALL inclusive. All that is happening is KNOWING. Everything is the content of that knowing but not as separate ‘things’.
    It is ONE without a second.
    ‘We’ divide the Knowing into the knower and the known. Thus duality appears (in the mind only) Nature expresses itself as the Dualism and dualism is totally balanced – there is NO conflict in dualism – as Bob points out “The in coming tide is not in conflict with the out going tide – Winter is not in conflict with Summer”….etc.
    We ‘imagine’ that some sort of individual knowing ‘goes out’ and grabs ‘things’ or that awareness goes out and touches ‘things’. Everything is Contained in the SEEING.
    Everything IS the knowing.
    This profundity when expressed in words, sounds like jibberish to the ‘intellectualizing mind’.
    In recognizing this, the mind is silenced and an understanding so radically different to what we call understanding comes to the fore. And yet, ordinary understanding is that also.
    But the ordinary understanding is passed over as if non-existing for the intellect, which is merely a bunch of concepts and words playing about on awareness.
    As someone mentioned earlier, this ‘forum’ exposes how impossible it is to talk about this – yet we do – and what’s more sometimes a recognition happens.
    What is on offer here is so radical and so liberating, it astounds me how it is not recognized immediately. But as I know myself, I had to hear it quite a few times before the egg cracked. Then, all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn’t put humpty together again. There is NO going back. Once you have truly seen through the facade – how could you ever believe in it again. and…..how could I or anyone make this stuff up…..and be so consistent. I have watched so many try and show Bob that he was or is wrong – and every time, every time without fail, he simply points out the error of perception in that ‘other’ and encourages a fresh look at it. They don’t always see it themselves – but there are others there to ‘witness’ the ‘argument’, those who may well gain insights from the tussle. “The intellectuals are the most difficult” – Nisargadatta – he said that at some point and it rings true in my experience. They sweat and twist about, jostling their concepts trying to get the upper hand – all the while hanging for dear life onto something called ‘ME’.
    Such a waste of energy – but that is life. Warm regards – Gilbert.

  24. Posted by tomvds on 11.11.08 7:41 pm

    Hey Renaldo,

    You said: “You’re talking about the non-conceptual awareness that’s always present. Why doesn’t that stick? ”

    Maybe an answer is found in logion 83 of the Thomas Gospel – 83. Jesus said, “Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father’s light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light.”
    According to the 2nd part, the image of the true father, non-conceptual awareness, is hidden because it is the light by which seeing occurs. Maybe that’s why it don’t seem to stick. The first part speaks of: If you make an image out of this Awareness that too is not separate from the light of Awareness, but the image/appearance is not the non-conceptual awareness that You are.
    (My attempt at jibber jabber)
    This logion is a variation on what John Wheeler says: “A wave is nothing but water; but water as such is not a wave as such”

    Anyhow, just entertaining you with some words from Mr.J. himself.
    Cheers, tom.

  25. Posted by Dave on 11.11.08 11:31 pm

    Awesome Gilbert:

    “No – the KNOWING is Everything – ALL inclusive. All that is happening is KNOWING. Everything is the content of that knowing but not as separate ‘things’.”

    Whatever prompted “you” to say that, made “me” ready to hear it. That talking to itself.

    At the end of the day it does come down to:

    I am that, this is that, and that’s that.

    In some ways its amazing that the pointers work at all since they draw attention to their own limitations. The truth is so obvious, so original. Ungraspable but undeniable. Even though we’re told a million times and a million different ways that it is the knowing itself, beyond close, the fixation on concepts is so very ingrained.

    The truth is in brilliant display before, during, and after all these conceptual gymnastics. The conceptual gymnastics are nothing other than that, wisps of nothing floating in/as that they try to explain or understand.

    Ramana’s bit about using one thorn to remove another is spot on. The mind spins itself in circles until it stops. And then there you are, there it is, right as it always was and will be, as the only thing there is.

    Here is my direct pointer of the day in parentheses:

    ()

  26. Posted by Kirk on 11.12.08 12:32 am

    Brilliant. What hit the mark the most for me was John’s description of the true role of the “teacher” as consistently redirecting us from our insatiable appetite for conceptual interpretation back to presence awareness. We always counter with: but what about …, But I’ve always thought that …, BUT this book/guy (insert your spiritual authority of choice) said this … blabbity blah, blah, blah. Blown away by how much patience you guys have for us cement heads – gratitude continues to grow. As they like to say in this part of Canada – “Way to get ‘er done, lads!”.

    Kirk

  27. Posted by Margo on 11.12.08 1:28 am

    How do we understand this conflicting idea of thought – some teachings claiming that thought is creative and therefore we have to control our thoughts and only think positive.The movie “Secret” made this idea very popular.Here in the non-duality we talk about the thought as not having any substance or power.It has been said that the thinker is just a thought appearing that has no power to do anything.We are told to be the observer of thoughts ,to see their fleeing nature and nothingness-their changing nature.The movie convinces us that we have the power to control and change our lives through the thought control and non-duality states the opposite,that we are being lived by Life ,that “me” does not even exists and for sure does not have any saying or control.Is the thought all powerful and creative when believed by the non-existing me?

  28. Posted by gilbert on 11.12.08 2:04 am

    Frankly my dear, the Secret is crap. It is more like an Indiana Jones story than anything else. There is NO secret. All there is is knowing.
    All these experts that go on about the Secret are making a fortune out of the gullibility of ‘seekers’. They are all laughing all the way to the bank. The advertisements for the secret or ‘how the secret works’ even gets into the ‘add space’ at the bottom of this comment page periodically. How that happens is a mystery to me. We certainly don’t get any finance from any advertisements that appear there. The only evidence that we needs to look at is ‘presence evidence’ – the right here, right now. If there is any Ultimate truth, then it MUST be HERE right NOW. So, all we need to see is what is it that is stopping us from recognizing THAT. And the answer is, it is the belief in the power of thoughts.
    What is it the invests those beliefs with a seeming power? That is what one needs to discover. No one can tell you or show you – because it is what you ARE.
    If you want a laugh, do a google search on Puppetji and The Secret. It is a humorous spoof that decimates the Secret. We may interview Puppetji, if we can locate His Eminence. But let’s not deviate too far from THIS, this ‘right here right now’.
    It is all very well to be entertained by these games but the essential point is to ‘get to the core of the matter’. Hundreds of pointers are shared here. We only really need one – one is enough as long as it registers cleanly and precisely.

  29. Posted by Charlie Hayes on 11.12.08 2:23 am

    Margo,
    Thoughts are insubstantial like clouds in an empty sky lighted by the ever-present sun. In the analogy You are the sky (consciousness, empty, lucid) and even before that You are the Light of The Sun (Being) that gives the sky it’s lucidity. Can a cloud attack, create, or empower another cloud? It may appear so but in reality it’s illusion. All the while these ideas of I, time, and location as a fixation (me) come and go, the sky (Consciousness) remains untouched and still, serene and silent… and all the while appearances appear they depend on the Source – The Light prior to Consciousness – to even appear. To take the stand that you are that Light seems to be a paradox because on looking into the light you find no-person to take that stand. Yet as John, Gilbert, Bob, and a few others with an authentic timeless Message, constantly point out, Being IS and is undeniable. That Being is the Light. ALL else is imaginary, fleeting, clouds in the sky. So what? So love rules and erases the false with no effort as these sharp and loving points are made over and over so to say…..but nothing means anything and yet the words appear….
    Loving you as myself in Wholeness.
    From I Am to I Am
    Charlie

  30. Posted by Pendragon on 11.12.08 2:24 am

    Margo,
    I was completely enmeshed in the “Secret” and went about “Creating” and wondering why the money, happiness, good relationships were not manifesting.
    But then I wondered, after being prompted to take a “Look”………….
    How can a thought called “ME”, (a bundle of automatic conditioned responses),
    Ever “Create” anything. Hmmmm~

  31. Posted by Margo on 11.12.08 2:29 am

    Gilbert – don’t you ever sleep?
    2am in Australia and you are answering e-mail that I wrote at 10am in Florida.
    Thank You for all the effort to make this message of non-duality more digestible!

  32. Posted by gilbert on 11.12.08 2:51 am

    I could tell ‘a whopper’ and say that the enlightened being never sleeps. I could soon have a crowd of devotees and lose all my privacy. Have seekers knocking on my door day and night wanting darshan or shaktipat or some other nonsense that people give so much credence to. I could get rich riding on the backs of the unwary, have a penthouse with ocean views etc. I love being an ordinary guy and to go about ‘my life’ without all the trappings of being ‘a teacher’. I have managed so far. Some suggest that I am not so ordinary. But I can tell you that a majority of the people I know, do not even know that I am ‘into this stuff’. Many would not believe that I do what I do. If they read some of my expressions, they would say “No – that is not Gilbert writing such things – I know him very well – he is a nice enough chap – but he is not spiritual – far from it”. That makes me smile. At times, and this is funny, it makes me feel a little like Clarke Kent, if you know what I mean – but of course I am no super hero. The expressions just come up and I start writing and I can tell you quite honestly that I don’t have much of an idea of how the paragraphs will turn out.
    Often, I will read through what has been written and think to myself “Where did that come from”. That is not to suggest that there is some sort of ‘channeling’ going on or that I am plagued with multiple personalities.
    I confess that I get a small degree of pleasure from the fact that a few of us, through the Cafe, are making some very clear pointers available to so many. I can still remember what it was like to be searching, although it is fading a bit.
    So, enjoy it or not. It is AS IT IS.

  33. Posted by Kelvim on 11.12.08 3:52 am

    Bring back John.

  34. Posted by nathan on 11.12.08 9:26 am

    Gilbert said: “What is on offer here is so radically profound and at the same time it is radically ordinary. Your own being.” So funny! I said nearly the same thing a few days ago to a friend…”astonishingly ordinary”…when it is seen that “I” don’t even brush my own teeth! Seeing/Being/Knowing just happening.

    I’ve read a little bit from those talking of some “flip flop”…not being the seeing, or some such thing as that.

    It might be interesting to note again, as it has been tirelessly noted here at this meta-cafe, that something is there that is Seeing the thought “I’ve got to get back to the Seeing”. Or “I’ve lost the seeing”, or the fear-thought “what if”, or the hypothetical-thought “yeah but”, or the intellectual-thought “i don’t get it” “it doesn’t stick”…what Sees? It’s inescapable and always present…and “radically ordinary”.

    If “I” am always showing up late to the party, it follows that “you” do too. NO “I”, NO “YOU”. Subject vs object resolved, internal vs external resolved…all opposites resolved…nobody to change anything, nobody to become anything, just Seeing. The ordinary IS extraordinary, it’s the movement away from what IS that creates the problem.

    Ramble bramble jibber jabber…too many words! Apologies if this is a bit off topic…honestly though…isn’t this Seeing really the ONLY topic?! And in the end…what can be said of no-thing?

    Nathan

  35. Posted by dorothy hoffman on 11.12.08 10:24 am

    Gilbert, you are a destroyer…we sure are lucky to have you. The seeking thoughts are gradually beginning to fade…rather, it would be more appropriate to say that they are being recognized for what they are…it still seems like there is a “me” that recognizes them; but that is ok…cause when looked into this nature of “me” there is only this shining presence; which somehow gets labeled as a “me”. Any name given to it seems inappropriate….the more this person is explored into…the more this nothing shines….

    Although i would like to mention that this shining doesn’t feel like “the oneness”, or all embracing, or love or anything of the sort; in fact, all these descriptions put a conceptual heaviness on it….

    Mike,

    Thank you for your intervention…your reading is spot on….and greatly appreciated!!!

  36. Posted by gilbert on 11.12.08 11:08 am

    Bring back John.

  37. Posted by Sergio on 11.12.08 11:46 am

    To Manuel Martinez, are you from Spain? me too.

    No email contact…. HOPES, this get published…..

    i can speak in spanish, as John said .

  38. Posted by Davidji on 11.12.08 11:51 am

    That 2nd post of Gilbert’s on this thread blasted me with every sentence. How could someone not get it after being placed in front of the statement:

    “Now, at what point is it that ‘you’ entered center stage with your ‘control schedule’? Do you remember your ‘curtain call’? Was it when they cut the chord at birth and ‘you’ had to take control and take the first breath? Has it been an exhausting journey having to control the breathing since then….or to beat the heart?”

    I guess if you have the obscure belief that you are some type of individual soul that needs to do something or become more spiritual or become enlightened, you might not understand what is being pointed at there but again as Gilbert said in another post:

    “A simple man or woman has a better chance to see THIS (whatever you want to label it as) than the one who has invested years of practice.”

    Thanks Gilbert

    Peace

  39. Posted by dorothy hoffman on 11.12.08 12:20 pm

    It’s not the “me” that is the real problem; it’s the belief in it; and this belief is somehow set on a default mode….

  40. Posted by Bill Tys on 11.12.08 1:08 pm

    John is absolutely clear in the following paragraph contained in his blog above…

    “The sense of “me” is itself a notion coming and going in that space of clear knowing. Before worrying about any sense of “me” and whether such a thing is present or not, make sure the clear and positive truth of what you are is clear. If this is not really clear, any other pointer is bound to (be) either misleading or misunderstood. This is not so much about the nature of appearances, or whether or not there is a me or not, or whether or not there is or is not suffering, etc. Those points all find a natural resolution — in clearly recognizing the positive truth of your being. Most people checking into non-duality tend to miss this key point”.

    What is said in the above paragraph is certainly the key point! There is too much looking into the appearance!

    So…if questions or frustrations are still arising…look NOW, deeply… and see what those questions and frustrations are arising in! Be earnest as Nisagadata says.

    It cannot be missed…the natural state is ever present…relax in That awhile and don’t move away from That into thoughts and questions.

    That undeniable presence awareness is immediate.

  41. Posted by gilbert on 11.12.08 1:24 pm

    Sergio, this is not a notice board for you to just put anything you wish to put out on it.
    OK. What I want to say here is this: If anyone is still going along to some Guru who keeps filling their heads with the concepts of ‘personal attainment’ and the old ‘Deliverance in the future’ stuff – why not give it a break. That is a not such a subtle trap – yet hundreds and thousands fall for it – such is life.
    Instead of going to the meetings, listen to any of the last 5 programs – let it sink in. You will see that none of what is being offered here is asking you to believe anything, no faith is needed. Listen to the programs – pause the program whenever something resonates with you. Look at it in the fresh light of the moment. Examine anything that catches or where the mind throws up some sort of resistance. I am not exaggerating when I say that what is offered here is totally radical – yet ordinary. This is not about some better life style. ‘When’ this clear pointing calls forth a clear resonance in being, then the old guru game is over. This ‘moment’ of pure insight does not leave you – it just expands – leaving behind the weight of beliefs. This is the everyday experiencing here (expressing itself as Gilbert) – it is so ordinary now, the memory of ‘how it was’ has lost all of its interest for me. As Bob says in that interview “You don’t waste time trying to bring it back – THIS moment now is the livingness” (Or words close to those).
    No corporate business is going to back this and you won’t hear about it on the main stream Media. It is far too confronting for the public. Only the individual in the ‘privacy of their own being’ can recognize what is actually being offered.
    A concept came up yesterday, that if the transcript of Bob’s interview were to be on the synopsis of some University program and young people studied what is being expressed, we would see considerable numbers of students ‘popping out’ of the bondage of self.
    The system is not so flexible. I am sure that there are Professors out there ‘teaching’ this stuff, yet I doubt that they are delivering a clean message.
    Ha, I just had another thought: Any offers of a professorship? California would definitely have such positions. They could offer Wheeler a position. Yet, when all is said and done, when the song is ended – it is simply AS IT IS – As it always IS.

  42. Posted by Sandy on 11.12.08 5:03 pm

    Thanks so much for putting up John’s interview. I know now why it took so long for part 2……..you were using your creative ability to interject songs!!!! At first I didn’t like the music, I just wanted to hear John but….after listening over again I think the music gives me time to ponder what is being said…brilliant idea!!! Areti’s voice is delightful as well!!!

  43. Posted by Sandy on 11.12.08 5:17 pm

    I think I want John as “MY GURU” ! Ok, just kidding! Seriously though, John do you ever travel and speak, like maybe, the east coast?

  44. Posted by gilbert on 11.12.08 6:25 pm

    The point is we keep looking for it in the wrong places. It is the very ‘place’ you are looking out from.

  45. Posted by Sandy on 11.12.08 9:27 pm

    I always find it funny how the guys that actually sat face to face with someone like Bob or Niz are the ones who are so quick to say..”You don’t need anyone” Maybe some still need to sit in the presence of one who knows their true nature. Seemed to have worked for you (Gilbert) and John. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

  46. Posted by Ralph on 11.12.08 9:33 pm

    Just some thoughts to ponder :

    - Who you ‘think’ you are is not who you are.

    - Life is so simple when there is no ‘me’ to interfere with what is.

  47. Posted by gilbert on 11.12.08 11:19 pm

    So what are you waiting for? No one gives it to you. Maybe actually being in the ‘presence’ and the ‘reciprocal resonance’ of someone that clearly has no ‘me’ does actually ‘mean’ something in our ‘being’. It is the closest you can come to meeting who you really ARE ‘out there’. It is not absolutely necessary. Actually I remember John Wheeler writing emails to me before he met Bob. In one of those emails he asked whether he should make the trip – or not, to see Bob. I told him he did not have a choice – it would unfold as it ‘is meant to be’ or something like that. I told Bob about John’s question about coming or not. Bob said “It’s not necessary to come – just read the book”. I conveyed the message back to John. In less than a month John arrived. The resonance that arose in John was obvious to me – and I venture to say that for John or myself, it can never be forgotten (it is not a memory – it is this livingness) – although I cannot speak for John – I doubt he would take a contrary position on this point.
    You see, the problem is that in suggesting (to a seeker) that some ‘event’ needs to happen just sets up the mind on the old Hamster Wheel(more imagination). Many do come to see Bob – but if there is too much expectation built up in the mind – then the mind will only find or not find what it is looking for – conceptualization. There is no point in fooling oneself.
    The thing is ‘we’ ignore our true nature. Whatever can ‘turn us around’ is valid. First you have to recognize that ‘I am facing the wrong way’ – looking for an answer in the mind. It just isn’t there. Present evidence is what is necessary. Something moves us to ‘find’ what we need – then it falls away because the need is no more.
    The mind never finds peace – it never does – because all it has is endless concepts, that divide into more and more concepts.
    The concept about awareness is NOT awareness.
    So, if you can’t recognize your own true nature by yourself – do what is necessary. Another ‘problem’ is that every Tom Dick and Harry says that their Guru is the ONE. And we have all heard the ‘propaganda’ about so many guru’s and teachers. Do your own sums. I don’t see many people out there ‘pointing’ clearly and precisely – do you? The majority of the one’s who are, as I see it, have been to see Bob.
    The true nature is present – it has NO words – it was there before any words were learned. Yet we ‘think’ we are going to recognize it through the mind – while throughout all our searching it is always present – silently present – it is THAT upon which everything registers. It is nameless. All anyone can do is point.
    All of our doubts are in the mind. We give the mind so much emphasis and it leads us astray consistently.
    No one is going to give THIS ‘thoughtless reality’ to you – you have to TAKE it – BE it.
    And the irony is that you already are IT. Throw away your ticket to ride.
    Start from the fact that you are THAT – then you don’t have to go anywhere or see anyone.

  48. Posted by Sergio on 11.13.08 2:21 am

    Gilbert, i don´t think this is a board for Me…..

    Only you don´t have email access betwenn users, so, how we can contact each other??? only had the option of asking.

    And second… your trigger is so quick. You are a bad host most times.

    I say that not for myself (not only), i see it in a lot of comments, your trigger is too quick.

    I know you now, and this is your nature… have nothing to do with the Clarity…. is just your wild personality.

    “You” are clear about this stuff no doubt, but in the other hand, too wild for ME.

    All we have personalities.

    I´m thinking i´m just quitin. I have no desires of reading the same stuff over and over.

    And i´m going to repeat again : your trigger is too much quick. You try to help people with that system? probably for some is good.

    It´s not my style. So, you can stay with your website… and have fun. This is not for me.

    I´m not going to write more, extending this comment. Have fun.

    If you think i need this type of gunning help, Forget It.

  49. Posted by linda on 11.13.08 7:00 am

    Hi Sergio,

    Want to chat? You might like to visit the google advaita-zen chat room – or the google Advaita now chat room.

  50. Posted by Sandy on 11.13.08 7:53 am

    Gilbert,
    I get what you are saying. Never having the priviledge to be face to face with any person who knows who they are I sometimes wonder what it would be like. Not that I would want to get anything from them I know there is nothing to get.

    Anyway, I’ve only been to California one time in my life. HA! and Australia seems like the moon to me. I just wanted to know if John ever got over to the east coast that’s all.

    In John’s book he wrote…Page 13 “Awakening to the Natural State”
    “Had I not meet Bob Adamson, the seeking might have gone on for decades”

    Love and peace to you Gilbert! I kinda like your quick draw!!! ha ha!

  51. Posted by Hilary on 11.13.08 9:42 am

    Yes, and one of those quick draws of Gilbert opened up my pineal gland. Halelujah !

  52. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.13.08 10:05 am

    I Love the quick draw, love the programs, love the controversy, love the music (a lot) and the sand paper…whew, it hurts Sooo Good~

  53. Posted by Ralph on 11.13.08 10:28 am

    Sergio, hang in there. Don’t give up just yet.

    See, Gilbert and John are great masters at pointing to the truth of who we are. What they say is true but unfortunately very few will hear the message. I think that they would reach more people if they meet most seekers where they are and from there lead them to see their true nature. In other words get down from the mountaintop and meet the seekers in the valley where they presently live. Few teachers do this.

  54. Posted by Sandy on 11.13.08 10:54 am

    COOL……. GREAT MASTER QUICK DRAW!!!! SOUNDS NON DUAL TO ME!!!

  55. Posted by gilbert on 11.13.08 11:32 am

    Quick Draw McGilbo can outdraw any Sombrero slouching Sergio any day. You gotta get outta the House Sergio – there’s a big world out there. Anyway, I only need to knock down a few more sitting ducks and I get the prize. Then I can pack up this sideshow alley program and take a nap. Too many complaints for my liking.
    Gurdjieff said once: “They expect roasted pigeons to fly into their mouths.” and “You expect God himself to come down out of the clouds and be your personal teacher”…. Or words close to those. The thing is, if we let one ‘pest’ onto these pages, writing nonsense repeatedly, then a whole bunch will come and crap all over it. Then this comment page will turn into the same sort of crap that you find on umpteen other non duality ‘chat sites’.
    I say “Get a life”. As soon as we take something personally, the resistance rises up.
    If you don’t catch the mechanism at play – how can you understand what you truly are?
    The play goes on………and on…..and on…………there is no intermission…..no Siesta.
    I am not here to make friends with anyone. Spiritual ‘people’ are the first to stab you in the back – this I know first hand. They are the most jealous of all people. Behind the scenes of any organized spiritual group there is the most unsavory ‘stuff’ going on. Sergio knows this also. He is out of it now. So “don’t go sticking your head in a hornets nest”…. Sergio. They will protect whatever they value irrespective of anyone else’s wishes. One needs to turn everything to an advantage…..the negative can turn positive in a flash……as long as there is no doubt in you. Vanquish all doubt and BE the Knowing that you ARE. That is all that needs to BE.

  56. Posted by John on 11.13.08 11:41 am

    Ralph wrote: “See, Gilbert and John are great masters at pointing to the truth of who we are. What they say is true but unfortunately very few will hear the message. I think that they would reach more people if they meet most seekers where they are and from there lead them to see their true nature. In other words get down from the mountaintop and meet the seekers in the valley where they presently live. Few teachers do this.”

    “Gilbert and John” – nothing but figments in your imagination. Notice what those appearances are arising within, to whom they appear. If we are talking about such illusory beings, we are missing what is being pointed to.

    “What they say is true” – Precisely false. Whatever they can possibly say is only a concept, and as such false. As always, look away from words to what is being pointed to.

    “very few will hear the message” – The notion that there a numbers of people “out there” in need of a message is yet one more presently arising notion.

    “they would reach more people” – If they had the concept of reaching more people, they would not have any business talking about this.

    “if they meet most seekers” – Ditto.

    “lead them to see their true nature” – All that can happen is pointing. It is up to you see for yourself. But, practically speaking, what you are suggesting is all that is happening here.

    “mountaintops … valleys” – Pause the concepts and look where you are standing. You are presently living in and as precisely what is being pointed to.

    “teachers” – One of the worst concepts. Anyone who takes on a self-conscious role as a teacher is living in a grand, yet entirely illusory, concept. The hidden assumption is that you are a student. That is a limitation on your unlimited, natural state.

    In sum, and per the usual, pause the concepts and see what is actually present, instead of emphasizing all the conceptual and imaginary distinctions. No one reading these messages is a defective, limited person in need of anything. If this is not clear, have a look and see what is the nature of your present and undeniable being. Then (and only then) are you in a position to determine if notions such as teachers, students, mountaintops and valleys are really adequate descriptions of what you are.

    P.S. Blog boards are limited by nature, being confined to printed words on a screen, which have virtually nothing to do with what this is about. So if the basics of this aren’t precisely clear see if you get in direct contact with someone who has looked into this stuff and can speak from direct experience. Not that they have anything you don’t, but it can be useful to have a direct converstation in e-mail, on the phone, or in person to address whatever particular questions may be present. Most of the people I know who are interested in this and enjoy communicating about what they have experienced are quite willing to talk about things and meet you at whatever place you happen to find yourself, contrary to what Ralph seems to be implying. On the other hand, he DID limit that comment to “teachers”. I am not a aware that anyone posting here is a teacher. Well, perhaps there were one or two, but they didn’t seem to hold up all that well!

  57. Posted by gilbert on 11.13.08 12:10 pm

    Entertaining, Controversial, Informative and Innovative. That is what the banner says.
    Some express it nice and cleanly. Others express it with a wild frenzy. Others still express it in apparently contradictory ways. The basic fact is that it is ALL an expression of THAT.
    The ‘pointing’ is only ‘seemingly necessary’.
    As Bob points out: “Everybody is THAT – it doesn’t matter whether ‘they know it’ or not.”
    It is all ‘a play of the elements’ as Nisargadatta pointed out.
    I may take off ‘the clown suit’ soon…….if you can’t laugh at your own silly spiritual seriousness, then not much more can be done.

    Where are you SEEING from? Is there a ‘you’ there that is seeing? Or is the apparent ‘you’ an appearance in the SEEING? Listen to the programs. That is what this podcast site is about. Go see one of the guest speakers if you can.
    You wont lose your personality and become some dry old stick in the mud.
    You wont ‘become’ anything other than what you are. The ‘holy image’ is a fraud.
    Get off your butt and make the trip…….the bigger the effort the better……….because when you get there you will find nothing that you don’t already have. Having spent a lot of money in travel and accommodation, then it may dawn on you that it is all useless – because what you seek you already are.

  58. Posted by nathan on 11.13.08 12:35 pm

    the self defensive/fear thought just might be the best ‘teacher’ you will ever have. at least it was here.

    chances are, if you are comfortable, or think you got it, or think you know, it’s a mind game.

    thanks john and gilbert for provoking the ‘me’ that isn’t so easy to look at!

    nathan

  59. Posted by gilbert on 11.13.08 12:44 pm

    Yes…..the story of the man who slipped on a cliff face in the night…..spent the whole night, clinging by his fingers, clinging for dear life – only to find that when the ‘dawning came’ he was one inch from a ledge. The mind will then say “But IF he had found the ledge, he may have walked the wrong way and then he would have fallen over the edge.” The mind will always come up with the opposite – that is how it works. There is nothing wrong with right now – if you don’t think about it. As someone earlier pointed out – the problem is not the ‘me’ – it is the belief in it that ’causes’ so much trouble. Have a good look at that belief.

  60. Posted by Sandy on 11.13.08 12:47 pm

    Gilbert says:
    “Get off your butt and make the trip…….the bigger the effort the better……….because when you get there you will find nothing that you don’t already have. Having spent a lot of money in travel and accommodation, then it may dawn on you that it is all useless – because what you seek you already are.”

    I tried to get Bob not to go see the Niz and John not to go see Bob but
    they wouldn’t listen. I’m sure now they feel it was a total waste of time and money!!!!

    Oh yeah, thanks for not saying “get off you FAT butt” cause then you would have hurt my illusional ego!

    All joking aside: Thanks for taking time to put up the interviews and share on the blog. Thanks guys for cutting through the many concepts with precision & clarity.

  61. Posted by Ralph on 11.13.08 1:10 pm

    John, first of all, I think you should stop twisting my words to fit yours. You are very much aware that words are the only tool we have to comunicate what cannot be communicated. When I say ‘teachers’, I mean one who can relay to you the truth of who you are and not by your definition stated in your previous post.
    Even though there is ‘no other’ we live in a world as if there are, hence why was the UGC created… if there was ‘no other’ ?

    Anyway, all is included and nothing is excluded (including the illusory beings)
    This is all part of what is ……

  62. Posted by nathan on 11.13.08 2:08 pm

    ralph…who is getting defensive?

    …sorry to say my friend, but they are not your words…thoughts are not your own, how can words be?

    take this opportunity to see just what that knot in your chest is. the walls are coming up…what are they protecting?

    this may be why the actually having a one on one with bob or whoever might be valuable…it brings out every insecurity and directly challenges every assumption and belief…that is, if there is the courage to see it.

    wasn’t there some ‘guru’ who said “you are the best guru” or something to that effect…maybe this is what he’s talking about?

    nathan

  63. Posted by Ralph on 11.13.08 4:35 pm

    nathan…. I justed checked to see what that knot in my chest is ….
    no worries…just heartburn …… tums did the job :)

  64. Posted by gilbert on 11.13.08 4:43 pm

    “The external guru is only a sign post. The internal guru (satguru) is your true essence and it is he that walks with you to the goal – he is the goal.” That is paraphrasing some words by Nisargadatta. SEE that everything is an appearance in the essence that you are.
    The clear and empty ‘presence’ of the ‘guru’ is a reflection of your own light.
    Roughly translated……Gu means darkness and Ru means light. Some say that the Guru is the destroyer of darkness. It all comes down to whatever actually resonates in your being.
    The light of what is true has no real opposition from the false. As Nisargadatta also says: “Don’t not pretend to be what you are not – and don’t refuse to be what you are.”
    If that does not mean much to you, then take another look.
    The ‘search out there’ is the problem. “The ONLY thing you are absolutely certain of is the fact of your own being” – Bob Adamson. Start right THERE. Everything else falls short of that undeniable fact of being. It all ‘appears’ in THAT. That which appears – disappears – but what you are has never ‘appeared’ and so it cannot disappear.
    (‘We’) You KNOW this – yet ‘we’ all ignore it – for some ‘reason’ – for some REASON.
    Reason is only thought. They all come and go. Why hang onto them?

  65. Posted by Nagarjuna on 11.13.08 5:31 pm

    I don’t wish to hurt the feelings of other “Gurus” in this website. But the “Guru” John Wheeler always clears up the doubts in my mind. I purposely used the word “Guru” because the website is called Urban Guru Cafe. But the other Gurus like Gilbert and Sailor Bob are also great. Long live the UGC.

  66. Posted by GURU (Gee yoU aRe YoU) on 11.13.08 5:41 pm

    Hit me Master One more time …
    “That is why the Gita says: The sword can’t cut it…..the wind can’t dry it…..water can’t drown it….and fire can’t burn it. …”

  67. Posted by gilbert on 11.13.08 6:17 pm

    The UGC is just an appearance – it may disappear way before you expect it to.
    It is only a stirring rod. Like the true messenger – it appears and disappears without a trace. In actually taking delivery of the message, all you know is that where there once was inner turmoil, there is now only clear emptiness. The mind never is able to understand what happened. Because it is always NO THING happening.
    That is why all the gurus who go on about ‘HOW’ to get enlightenment are just sparrow fats in the wind.
    The world is upside down – everything you value is worthless.
    And the only thing of any value, you ignore.
    When that ignorance vanishes there is only the light of knowing.
    There is no ‘place’ in between – the place in between is called ME, a fictional ‘membrane’ also called ‘separation’. The boundary between inside and outside vanishes when we stop believing in it. When the MOON is recognized to be within you – not as some conceptual notion – as a remarkable and indisputable apperception – then the ‘seer’ and the ‘knower’ are no longer standing between what you are and what IS.
    How can anyone give you THAT? It is how it always has been. It is only the belief in ‘me’ that distracts ‘us’. But see how difficult it is to convince anyone to really investigate that ‘me’. Those that do are filled with joy – you never hear them complaining about anything. They shine with life. The others glare through jealous eyes and don’t realize what they are doing to themselves.
    All of our efforts to roll back the Rock that covers the chamber, where the Master is supposed to be laying, reveals only emptiness except for a seamless garment folded neatly in the corner. This symbol should be obvious. But the symbol is not recognized and a story leaps into view and the mind runs off with it.

  68. Posted by Nagarjuna on 11.13.08 9:45 pm

    I really owe it to all of you at UGC namely Gilbert, John, Tony Parsons and Sailor Bob. This only happened a few weeks ago. Prior to that I had read Sri Nisarga, Guru Ramana, JK, Ramakrishna, and other famous icons. But it never penetrated that I was not the separate person I imagined myself to be. But only after seriously digging into what the 4 mentioned gentlemen were saying and asing myself what I was doing wrong it suddenly flashed that I was imagining myself to be a person with a name. Other than my belief in being a person with a name I really was not that. The person or ‘me” was getting more life because of the name attached to it. The naming was the worst problem. What was I without a name?

    Looking into myself carefully it dawned more and more that the separate person I believed myself to be was just a belief, an imagination. Nobody of that kind was actually present other than the reality of Presence Being Awareness or whatever one may want to call it. And it is the same in all living beings.

    It became very obvious thet there was no person or entity there except in my imagination. I am sure Gilbert, John, Sailor,Tony and other Gurus over here can explain much better than I can but it became obvious to this Presence Awareness Being (that I really am) that, that I was not the person or separate entity with a name. All those ideas were actually not present except in my imaginative brain. So many sincere thanks to the Gurus of UGC for clearing this identity confusion.

  69. Posted by gilbert on 11.13.08 10:12 pm

    In the ancient tradition from India the ‘pointing’ has been happening for centuries.
    Nama Rupa is translated as Nama=name and Rupa=form (body).
    Only one who has realized that his or her essence is beyond the name and form can truly ‘point’ at this fact. Those who repeat the words like a parrot do not usually carry any weight.
    It may appear unfortunate that so many westerners have learned the language of this ‘pointing’ and repeat it without true knowledge.
    There is an ancient story of a Zen monk who heard some words repeated, the potent words of a Zen master who lived in a place hundreds of miles away. He recognized in himself a resonance with those words, even though they were only repeated by another. He decided on the spot to go to this master and he set off that same day. He walked the whole way through sleet and snow and was faced with many difficulties but the resonance he felt only grew stronger. When he arrived at the remote mountainside monastery he met a monk sweeping the path near the entrance. They greeted each other in the usual custom. He then asked the resident monk where he could find the master.
    The sweeping monk answered, “The master is cloud hidden, where abouts unknown.”
    The practical explanation is that the master (the nama rupa of the master) had taken a stroll in the mountain side and the clouds were covering the mountain.
    You can interpret this story in many ways. The journey and the expectation of deliverance were only incidental. It is the resonance in being, which actually is beyond time, and space, beyond the name and form, that is the ingredient that is necessary.
    It may be faint at the moment but in hearing something that brings forth a clear response, a response that is not passing through ‘reason’ – not of the mind – that faint resonance makes itself known in an undeniable way. So stick with what resonates.
    Nothing else ‘matters’.
    P.S. There is a free e-book down loadable from my website called “Everything is Clear and Obvious”.

  70. Posted by Nagarjuna on 11.13.08 10:41 pm

    Thank You Gilbert. I just wanted to acknowledge my sincere gratitude to all of you. Why this body/mind could not see though this idiosyncrasy all these years is kind of mind boggling. It is so utterly simple and yet I had been such an utter fool. I had taken for granted that I was an individual and I had taken such immense pride in that stupid stupid error of perception. The joke was on no one actually.

  71. Posted by Margo on 11.14.08 12:31 am

    Every time somebody gets annoyed or offended the rest of us that are ready and ripe benefits from this-we get ‘whack’ (like an electric shock) into the place of clear seeing. Gilbert is like a laser scalper cutting of all the nonsense and therefore all possible confusion with the precise, sharp and clean cut. I have notice that after reading same pointers over and over the mind wants to skip to more elaborate explanations and refuses to come to FULL STOP to investigate the pointer, so when Gilbert comes with this laser scalper (egoic bull cutter ) the mind is shock into stop. One should take advantage of it and not complain or be offended but investigate what is being pointed to.
    It appears that this stuff is so obvious and ordinary that we constantly miss it -normal explanations only get us so far ( 20 years of reading ) and then shock is needed.
    You guys are relentless in this pointing, what was a mystery for 20 years become clear in a matter of months. So THANKS for all the wake-up calls, don’t ever stop or we will again be hypnotize by the mind-for another 20 years of reading.
    Thanks UGC.

  72. Posted by gilbert on 11.14.08 12:55 am

    Don’t waste any ‘time’ over how it ‘was’. It will drag you back into ‘time’ – don’t invent any stories about any attainment – or you will end up like these divergent teachers of nonsense.
    Correction to the previous comment, with respect of course:
    It does not appear that it is simple. – It only ‘appears’ that it is complex.
    It IS simple – far too simple.
    Everything is clear and obvious just as it is.
    This is even ‘reflected’ in ordinary seeing.
    It is the minds translation that brings complexity. ‘We’ have trusted what the mind tells us (all from the past) and ‘we’ ignore the clear and precise present evidence of ‘no thought’. There are no rules to this. For some the apparent struggle of the ‘me’ to survive may need a sudden shock to stun it into the background. One can also say that it ‘appears’ that some escape the hypnotic trance induced by ‘society’. It is all in the appearance of ‘things’. The True Essence is not asleep. Nothing touches it.
    It only ‘appears’ that individuals ‘awaken into it’.
    There is only ONE Being.
    Such statements may appear to be ‘fancy high flying concepts’.
    Look now – are all these other beings you see – are they not appearances in that consciousness that you are?
    There is no substance to the ‘I’ – neither in yourself or in these others.
    All of the misunderstanding arises because of the belief in that non existent substance.
    If there is an ‘I’ then it is the WHOLE. It is impartial. All inclusive.
    You are THAT.

  73. Posted by Margo on 11.14.08 2:28 am

    I said that it is simple and obvious because after re-reading and re-listening to the many pointers it become clear that I am IS this present awareness that is seeing and listening right now.The very awareness of what is right now happening,the very noticing is THAT.If THAT that is aware right now IS who I am then it is obvious and simple-nowhere to go and nothing to look for.IT always IS present right here right now and I am THAT. Please correct me if I am mistaken or confuse.

  74. Posted by Margo on 11.14.08 2:58 am

    I love the pointer of John Wheeler;
    Pause and notice that “you are”. Then laugh with sheer joy and delight that your mind was only playing with you. You have always been your natural and inescapable self.
    In the previous post I meant to say -seeing and hearing (not listening).

  75. Posted by joe on 11.14.08 6:21 am

    Hey Gilbertji,

    Do you do Bhajan over the phone? What are the rates?
    Namaste,
    Joe

  76. Posted by Sergio on 11.14.08 8:36 am

    Bye bye guys, i have nothing to share.

    Enjoy the wonderful podcasts.

  77. Posted by guy fawkes on 11.14.08 9:00 am

    Hi Sergio,

    Wait!
    Wait, until Gilbert’s emptiness starts to sing.
    He’ll get all lovy-dovy and travel all the way to Spain just to hug you.
    The best is yet to come.
    GF

  78. Posted by gilbert on 11.14.08 10:54 am

    Margo – no correction necessary. The point being made is that simplicity IS. There is nothing simpler than non duality. It is all words of course.
    We make it complex by adding concepts – we pile them up and call it knowledge.
    I love a good Bhajan but I can’t see why anyone would pay any rates to sing along with me on the phone. I do consultations via Skype. There are not so many takers though.
    Some get stuck……..in seeing the truth of it all and yet they keep getting caught in the mind. As I wrote in an email to someone this morning:
    Love yourself……love the me…….at least be warm towards your own being……..Stop beating yourself up.
    The traces of the belief in the me will always be there…………stop grabbing them and blowing them up out of proportion……..the conflict is unnecessary.
    There can never be any peace of mind……..you are NOT the mind.
    A story about ME keeps resurfacing……….it is just a story.
    AND…..It is only a story that someone ‘gets it’ or someone ever ‘got it’.
    There is no one to ‘GET IT’…………
    Drop that story that ‘you get it’………that is the problem……..
    As I mentioned in my last program “When the idea ‘I am now enlightened’ arises, have no truck with it” Drop it. It is not a matter of ‘WHO’. It is intelligence.
    Let the light of knowing shine without any words or concepts…………the dawn is here………don’t go fucking with the clouds on the horizon.
    P.S. I know quite a few who appear to be thoroughly convinced that they ‘got it’ and yet they display a considerable amount of bullshit when talking about this stuff.
    One repeatedly talks jibberish with such apparent confidence. Another speaks with angels on their shoulder and is obviously deluded. Another speaks like they alone have ‘got it’ and everyone else is off the path somehow (it’s not me I am talking about by the way, smarty-pants). Another one uses phrases like ‘Rest in the awareness’ and yet their life is like something out of a gangster porn movie. Another one talks down to everyone and lectures them on where they are going wrong (Fire and Brimstone). Am I surrounded by a bunch of Luna-ticks? NO – this is how the One expresses itself. In every possibility there IS. ‘When’ it ceases to touch you and call forth unconscious re-actions – is there then someone that is fortunate present? ‘People’ are like accordions – they have so many buttons to push. I am not the one who pumps up the accordion with air. I am not the button pusher either. The clear space that ‘I am seeing out of’ is also right there ‘where you are’. Stop ignoring it.
    The rest is all stories. ‘Get that’ and be done with it.

  79. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.14.08 11:07 am

    Thank You Gilbert~!

  80. Posted by John on 11.14.08 11:30 am

    Ralph: John, first of all, I think you should stop twisting my words to fit yours.

    John: I have no intention to twist words, only to point out that whatever concept or structure the mind creates, it has no finality or ultimate reality to it. More importantly, what you are cannot be defined, limited or confined to ANY concept. That is my point.

    Ralph: You are very much aware that words are the only tool we have to communicate what cannot be communicated.

    John: This is not true, as there are other ways and means of communicating besides words. But, yes, concepts can point. They can point beyond themselves to what is prior to concepts OR else they can point back into more concepts. In the first case (when concepts point beyond themselves) all fixation and interest in the concepts fades. You are left naked and bare, with no support at all. That is the “full stop” alluded to in several of these posts. The alternative case is when the pointers become the basis for further concepts. It is important to see the difference. The pointer itself is neutral. One and the same pointer can function both ways, depending on how it is being handled, the intention behind it, and who is listening to it. There is no fixed truth in concepts. That is why the recorded words of sages and traditions are very often dead and ineffective. Without the life behind them and/or an appropriate readiness to hear them, they often become conceptual anchors that accentuate the sense of conceptual bondage.

    Ralph: When I say ‘teachers’, I mean one who can relay to you the truth of who you are and not by your definition stated in your previous post.

    John: This fine as far as it goes, but it is a makeshift way of talking. I think we can move past that now. How far are you from being/awareness in this moment? Who needs to relay this? CAN anyone else relay this? Is it not fully present and inescapable? When this is so immediate and available, there is not much need for talking of teachers and students any longer.

    Ralph: Even though there is ‘no other’ we live in a world as if there are, hence why was the UGC created… if there was ‘no other’ ?

    John: AS IF. That is the key. In truth “we” don’t live in a world at all. Like all else, the notion of “the world” comes and goes in immediate presence/awareness. Seeing this, the “as if” qualification can fall. Then it is just being what you are. All defining oneself in terms of concepts ends. It is important to see how all notions – the body, mind, others, world, universe, etc. – simply arise and set as present notions in aware-presence. It is not as if any of them have any independent reality at all. It is all too easy to spin up a world in conceptual thought and proceed to get lost in all sorts of imaginary distinctions.

    Ralph: Anyway, all is included and nothing is excluded (including the illusory beings). This is all part of what is ……

    John: These are pleasant notions and may pass for a direct pointing in some circles. Still it doesn’t really get to the core of what this is about. It is easy to come out with phrases like “all is the oneness” or “there is no one here”, etc. Again, they are fine as some kind of initial pointer and may serve some value in some contexts. They may even be enough to get you a gig as a teacher on the circuit. But, in fact, they fail to address the heart and soul of what is being pointed to here, in my view. This is strictly an opinion. Your mileage may vary.

  81. Posted by Sandy on 11.14.08 2:01 pm

    If everyone who downloaded John’s and Bob’s interviews went to Gilbert’s site and sent in a few bucks or more if you can, I bet it would really help in funding this web site. Maybe you already do that anyway..just a thought!

    Then Gilbert might belt out a few tunes! I didn’t even know he sings! I just found this website a few weeks ago and it has been great!

  82. Posted by guy fawkes on 11.14.08 5:23 pm

    Wow, nice post from Gilbert there. I re-cognised some of It. Especially the part of the gangster-porn movie (But not the part about the clouds though) ;-) I don’ know exactly what is meant by “‘When’ it ceases to touch you and call forth unconscious re-actions – is there then someone that is fortunate present?”
    Behaviour has nothing to do with THIS, nor with realising THIS. Yes? OR is It: By the fruit ye shall know the tree?

  83. Posted by guy fawkes on 11.14.08 5:36 pm

    John,

    Do you ever wonder about “the appearances are not Awareness in and of themselves” how Awareness that we are aware of these appearances while of course the opposite would be ridiculous, but why NOT? The appearances are the Awareness because there is no duality in non-duality. Yet Awareness is non-conceptual openness and appearances are opaque and seem to finite. Is there a difference in density that explains that there are appearances and Awareness (which are not two), no that cannot be It, because that would be measurable and not the Infinite (which cannot be measured). It seems if All is One there would only be a primal soup of Knowing-ness, not even this apparent dualism, No?

    GF

  84. Posted by gilbert on 11.14.08 5:50 pm

    To no one in particular: ‘When’ someone insults you and ‘it goes through the the keeper’ then it is obvious that the insult had nowhere to lodge (in you) and so an ‘unconscious re-action’ does not happen – it does not mean that there is someone there who is fortunate not to ‘have’ re-actions. There is no one there even in the one who tosses the insult.
    You see one cannot pretend to be beyond the ‘nama-rupa’, the name and body.
    If that is what is happening there (with anyone) then something that needs to be recognized has not been recognized. The same applies to the teachers who talk about ‘a future time’ when you will achieve a higher state of being. They are talking nonsense.
    They obviously don’t recognize that it is nonsense. Unless they are just business people on a ‘good wicket’. If they truly know this freedom, then ‘Why on Earth’ would they insist that these poor seeker devotees of theirs should apply any methods to achieve those imaginary states of being. Everyone has experiences we could call ‘special’.
    These dudes play on it and beat up a story and that entraps the devotees.
    It can only mean that these teachers themselves are indulging in a story of ‘personal achievement’ for themselves.
    You may not have noticed but…..What is on offer here is radically different to all that nonsense. ‘People’ re-act strongly to any mention of these points – why? – BECAUSE they themselves have a vested interest in those ‘personal achievement concepts’ and they have been trying to achieve those higher states and some have convinced themselves in the ‘privacy of their own thoughts’ that they are ‘almost there’. Therefore, any suggestion that all of that stuff is worthless is not going to be accepted – not accepted by the very same ‘believed in entity’ that has plodded along for umpteen years – sucked in by a bullshit story told by someone who prances about like some ‘holier than angels’ being. It is all crap – all of it. Sorry to be so blunt – but why not be blunt?
    The key stone is: One must know the difference between ‘belief’ and ‘knowing’.
    You KNOW that you are – it is not a belief. Use that as a yard stick.

  85. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.14.08 11:27 pm

    The key stone is: One must know the difference between ‘belief’ and ‘knowing’.
    “You KNOW that you are – it is not a belief” – quote from Bob Adamson.
    Use that as a yard stick.

    Thank You, G

  86. Posted by Sergio on 11.15.08 3:00 am

    I did (make) the first question Areti asks John in the interview (this program). I wrote it for the people.

    What is Non Duality ?

    No one can tell what is. Life is, being is, actions happen, energy, flow, resentment, pains, pleasure, ever changing.

    Some presence is underneath always.

    In the appearance of ‘things’, all is always changing. No “me” witnessing, the me is part of the play.

    No you.

    No other.

    What you truly are is not involved.

    Ever-present. Full. Already rich.

    No one can add to you.. anything.

    Or remove anything from you.

    Seeing that, the play rolls on, the play continues.

  87. Posted by Ralph on 11.15.08 8:23 am

    “You are nothing and emptiness”. Thats ‘DEAD’ …… but in that nothingness there is a ‘seeing’ that you are ‘everything’ and ‘fullness’. Now thats ‘ALIVENESS’.

    Paradox ? yes indeed !!

  88. Posted by Michael on 11.15.08 8:53 am

    Holy Crap ..
    The nondual message is starting to dawn on me
    Its hard to believe how hypnotizing personal mind is/was
    A tough arrogant egg to crack
    Incredibly dim really.
    ‘Thinking mind’ is a dream (nightmare) made of words and meanings
    It sees no value in being.
    How could i have tried to live in this mess of words?
    ….dualistic language.. but who cares?
    Thank Christ it’s only language!
    I feel so good, a little crack in mind armor and i want to tell my friends!
    but i don’t have any…damn..
    This is huge and so what…. together at last.
    And really hard to write about
    thank you, thank you, thank you, john, areti and bob for the pointers.

  89. Posted by John on 11.15.08 11:18 am

    It has been fun having a chance to share some pointers over the last few weeks via the podcasts and in the comments section. Hopefully, some things have been clarified in all this rambling. If the nature of what you are is clearer or if some doubts or questions have been addressed and resolved, then this has been worthwhile. Judging from some of the comments, I suspect this is so.

    I have enjoyed the spirited dialogue. The comments have ranged all over the map, but it all comes together in the end. We have had some interesting and memorable developments in the blog. It is great to see people looking seriously into this stuff and willing to share their experiences and questions. One can never say from one moment to the next what might manifest. Such is life. As usual, it is a case of letting things flow — unaltered, unmodified and uncorrected.

    My questions and doubts about this stuff got cleared up a few years ago after talking with Bob Adamson. After years of seeking, suffering and doubt and wandering in the spiritual marketplace, he was able to point me back to the simplicity of things so I that I could see for myself “what I am and what I am not”. Previous to that, Bob had found himself beyond the need of further help after meeting and talking with Nisargadatta Maharaj back in the 70s. And on it goes.

    Now it is your turn. Along the line, if you meet someone who shows an interest, you may find yourself offering a few pointers about this ever-present and immediate freedom, the fact of being what you already are.

    Love,
    John

    All that a guru can tell you is: “My dear Sir, you are quite mistaken about yourself. You are not the person you take yourself to be.” – Nisargadatta Maharaj

  90. Posted by Alan on 11.15.08 11:50 am

    Thanks John, Areti, Gilbert and everyone who participated. I enjoyed the conversations and the pointers. Always looking forward to the podcasts.

  91. Posted by gilbert on 11.15.08 12:56 pm

    Yes. Agreed. Even if we don’t do any more programs – these 21 programs will stay up here for quite awhile. A good comedy act needs a straight guy and a bent guy. I am ‘ambidextrous’ and can play both roles almost at the same time. It has been fun with a little drama thrown in at times. The stats are still climbing and November looks like topping October which was huge. It’s all relative of course. None of the guest speakers are big names ‘out there’ and probably never will be. Then again, the numbers that are looking at this subject of Non Duality is fairly minor on the scale of things. I heard a brief interview with Deepak Chopra that Charlie Hayes sent me, the other day. I was pleasantly surprised at what he had to say to reporters about his new book. I know that Nisargadatta’s books have had a strong impact with Deepak from what he has indicated.
    Also: The recent website ‘presence’ of Eckhart Tolle and Oprah has sparked off a lot of interest in ‘this general direction’ with millions of downloads happening. Unprecedented. It is by no means pure Non Duality but there are some very clear pointers in there, for sure. The general public are not tuned into this.
    The fundamentalists will always find a problem with anything that cuts away belief and exposes the underlying truth of things. That is all mind stuff. What I am seeing is a growing number of ‘seekers’ experiencing a ‘stopping of the mind’ when they read or hear the direct pointers on offer here and in other places, meetings, books etc.
    There will always be the experts on this subject (or any subject) and they all divide Non Duality into Neo and Traditional Advaita. They do not SEE that all that stuff is just belonging to the dualistic nature of the mind. It is the mind that divides the WHOLENESS into conceptual compartments and that is always divergent – leading away from the essential nature and the simplicity of it all.
    We must find that ephemeral ‘something’ that is beyond the multiple ‘reference points’ that appear in the mind (as concepts, ideas, thoughts and images).
    I like what John Wheeler says: “What is the truth of who you are?”
    The question does not (need to) take us into a realm about ‘who’ and endless stories.
    It opens things up – a mystery is self-evident right there (here). There is no answer to the question – and in recognizing that, it is a sure sign that one is on the scent of THIS profound and yet ordinary revelation about what actually lies behind the ‘I am’.
    With a willingness to stay in a ‘place of not knowing’ then everything reveals itself AS this KNOWING. Everything is contained in THAT and IS THAT.

  92. Posted by guy fawkes on 11.15.08 4:59 pm

    Why not put up a few vids from Adya. That’ll draw some seekers!

  93. Posted by gilbert on 11.15.08 6:56 pm

    Why do I even both doing this? Where are the genuine folk who don’t have some silly name to hide behind? I might as well change my name to Sri Sri Poo Poo Bum and just join all the nutters.

  94. Posted by audrey on 11.15.08 9:13 pm

    Dear Gilbert, your firey and funny expressions are entertaining..informative..AND..provocative. Watching the reactions, they have ranged back and forth from combative, defensive, flattered. And pretty strong at times as ownership loses its grip.
    Beyond the froth and bubble, for anyone ready to know the simple, radical fact of nonduality, the pointers are clearly, generously and relentlessly offered here.
    In gratitude.

  95. Posted by Ralph on 11.15.08 10:51 pm

    Thank you John for stopping by at the UGC and remember, the next time you stop by, the coffee is on me.

  96. Posted by tomvds on 11.15.08 11:46 pm

    Yes, Thanks John and Gilbert for sharing the simplicity of what’s naturally non-dual with such rare clarity and eloquence !

  97. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.16.08 12:54 am

    The shell has been cracked and I’m leaking all over the place.

    Humpty Dumpty was looking for a few good horses and men
    but now realizes that the yolk is on him…. Damn that gravity~

    Thank You B, G, J & A

  98. Posted by tomvds on 11.16.08 2:56 am

    Quoting from an interview with Sailor Bob Adamson-”…being a vibration it must vibrate into the creative and useful aspect but it must vibrate into its opposite, the negative, destructive aspect and that’s what we do….” “And the more advanced we seemingly become with the inventions and creativity, the more destructive we become with the negative part of it-the madder, the more silly we become because it vibrates into the opposites”
    And then!
    “And it can only vibrate into that opposite when there is believe in the entity, something for it to vibrate into. So it vibrates, as this pattern that we have about ourselves.”

    This vibrating into opposites can be seen in Science where the spectrum goes from antibiotics to the nuclear bombs (although the first is like a nuclear bomb to micro-organisms-the benefit is in the eye of the beholder). So it is to be expected that when this assumed entity is questioned the pulsating must go haywire like it for instance does in a amusing way in these comments-sections wich have been very enjoyable. And maybe for every one who is way of beam another may be zapped into timelessness by that very beam.So beam me up Scotty, All is well!

  99. Posted by John on 11.16.08 7:24 am

    Someone wrote, “Why not put up a few vids from Adya. That’ll draw some seekers!”

    What is being shared here goes well beyond the realm of self-styled gurus and the seekers they attract. There is a stage where that seems appealing, primarily because we have yet to appreciate the basics of what this is about. Listening to tales of awakening, learning about the steps and stages of the path as laid out by the “expert”, and enjoying the “rare privilege” of sitting in the presence of the specially awakened one – such things mesmerize the gullible. And it doesn’t hurt to have a few Sanskrit names and terms dropped along the way for a touch of atmosphere. A few quotes from a dead sage or two to confirm one’s pedigree, and one is off to the races. A fool follows a fool and both are mightily pleased! Recently one such budding “teacher” was heard to say “off camera” that being a satsang teacher sure beats working in an office. So much for “all is oneness and there is nobody here”! The truth will always out.

    Have a good look to see who you are and the bottom falls out of the teacher and seeker game. In losing the concept of being a seeker, the interest in professional teachers with their dualistic doctrines and pseudo-spiritual concepts fades. On the other hand, if you are identified with the role of being a “perpetual seeker” or have created a cozy lifestyle which depends on the perks, money, fame, or social status of the “spiritual game”, then such teachers and doctrines will have their inevitable appeal.

    Those in golden handcuffs tend to flock around a goose promising golden eggs. What we are doing here is smashing the handcuffs and cooking the goose. Some will cry foul and cling to their handcuffs, but a few will laugh with delight and reclaim the freedom that was never lost.

  100. Posted by dorothy hoffman on 11.16.08 7:58 am

    John and Gilbert…you rock. The clarity offered here is irrefutable. Due to “years” of conditioning into this belief of separation and helplessness, the mind reverts back to its old tactics; however, this message once heard, starts to burn away the foundation of this very false premise. Seemingly, “remembering to remember” happens in it and “forgetting” happens in t.

    Although it is understood that there is no autonomous entity “here” running the show, somehow it is also felt that the point of no return has not occurred. Is this just an idea? Would be grateful if you could please clarify…

  101. Posted by Ralph on 11.16.08 9:05 am

    Dorothy, perhaps the reason the ‘point of no return’ has not occured is that there are still many ‘beliefs’ (due to “years” of conditionng) still present. This is why I think it is important to investigate and look into your beliefs especially the repressed ones to see that they are just ‘thoughts believed’. There are no shortcuts to get to , as you say, the point of no return. Just hearing or understanding the pointers will not do it, you must walk through your ‘belief system’ to see what stands in the way of ‘true seeing’. Anyway, thats my take on it.

  102. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 11:14 am

    There is no point of departure and no point of return. There is only THIS. This has no beginning and no end. Have a look – ‘When’ were you not here? You cannot remember not being here – ever. All thoughts can only ‘appear’ in this timeless presence of knowing. Knowing is all that is happening. To affirm that or deny that can only happen in this knowing presence. The affirmation and/or the denial are incidental. ‘Who affirms, who denies’? Any apparent consequence can only ever ‘appear’ in THIS knowing presence. No one can convince you of this – it must arise as an undeniable Seeing-Knowing. Only then will the mind ‘take a pregnant pause’.
    In that pause the discrimination between knowing and belief happens.
    Nothing is ever added to THIS and nothing is ever taken away from THIS. The idea that there is some conditioning that is going to return is a concept – being dwelt on, a feeling is added to it. Only in the appearance do thing come and go. What you are is unadorned, naked awareness. THAT does not come and go. The habit of ‘believing’ fades away. I say that “I have NO beliefs whatsoever now”. This is a highly provocative statement it seems, because If this is said to an ‘intellectual’ they ‘fly off the handle’ in less than a nano-second. In the clear space from which SEEING is happening there is NO time, NO division of space, No division of ‘mind’. Everything is contained in the singular movement of knowing……cognition. So I say: “When the levy breaks it takes awhile for the dam to empty.” It is all expressions – some ‘appear to’ spark off a recognition and an understanding is apparently uncovered, if only briefly. The understanding is always there – silent, wordless and complete. It is only ‘mind stuff’ that ‘seemingly’ obscures it. A natural confidence arises and that is unmistakable – no one can take it away from you. That confidence appears to grow as the ‘dam empties’. Some ‘others’ may see that confidence as ‘arrogance’ or as some other apparent ‘state’. I say: “Who cares what others think?”
    This natural freedom is impossible to share. You cannot give it away to anyone – least of all ‘sell it’ to devotees over many years of labor and practices imposed upon them.
    The recognition is instant – the levy breaks in one instant – it only appears to ‘take time’.
    A Zen master may whack you with the bamboo rod a thousand times – call it compassion or cruelty, it is no guarantee that a whack will coincide with the recognition that is required. There is no one that can orchestrate that spontaneous rising up of pure intelligence – a recognition of ones own true nature.
    We use concepts to remove concepts. It appears to work now and then.
    Naked awareness is never obscured by any ‘thing’. That is the revelation – in my words.
    I share these words ‘of mine’ often. I receive confirmation that sometimes they have a profound effect on ‘someone’ out there. I also receive many complaints from irate ‘intellectuals’. Nothing has stopped the expression from happening – even if those expressions make me look like some sort of idiot. Anything is valid – anything can give the ‘whack’ that is necessary – or seemingly necessary.
    I could sit here on a meditation stool and exude ‘LOVE’ to all – convince myself that that is what is needed. Such notions are fanciful for this ‘intelligent presence’ that expresses itself as ‘Gilbert’. Maybe by being controversial and entertaining, it keeps the reader engaged, so that a clear message may ‘pop out’ in a sentence somewhere.
    One can go on and on rationalizing it all. The basic thing is that you cannot negate that knowing presence – all the rest is concepts.

  103. Posted by Ralph on 11.16.08 1:16 pm

    The ‘false self’ must be seen as false and since the ‘false self’ is doing the looking then it must look at itself and with true honesty, it will perhaps see itself as false but until then it will be seen as a separate entity. It all comes down to ‘How much do you want to know the truth of who you are’ ? If its not 100 % then the false self will stay intact.

    What Gilbert is saying is true, it appears we use concepts to remove concepts but WE DO USE CONCEPTS and we need to throw both concepts away immediately afterwards. The levy breaks in one instant but it appears that it takes ‘many concepts’ to weaken it before it finally collapses in one instant.

    Anyway, this is just another pointer expressing itself in a different way.

  104. Posted by George Holbrook on 11.16.08 2:06 pm

    To Ralph,

    How can a “false self” which is just an assumption do any looking? The false self as the word suggests is not real. How can something false do anything, like looking? The false self can be discovered to have never been present.

  105. Posted by dorothy hoffman on 11.16.08 2:18 pm

    Thanks Gilbert, as always, your pointing resonates…esp. this bit….
    “Naked awareness is never obscured by any ‘thing’. That is the revelation – in my words”.

    It is recognized that thoughts are present and absent in it…it is recognized that the mind wants to grasp this and label it as understanding…while it remains untouched…it is recognized that this “person” arises and disappears in this…this “me-ness”…so to speak, but there is no me there.

    Like you say…”No one can convince you of this – it must arise as an undeniable Seeing-Knowing. Only then will the mind ‘take a pregnant pause’.
    In that pause the discrimination between knowing and belief happens”. “The basic thing is that you cannot negate that knowing presence – all the rest is concepts”.

    Sometimes a sense of agitation arises and at other times there’s a sense of relief…in knowing that this is not up to “me”. And sometimes there’s nothing…just watching of all this….

    Thanks again Gilbert….very few are as clear….

  106. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 2:52 pm

    There is no need to engage with the concepts that the false cannot SEE.
    SEEING is happening. There is ONLY one Seeing happening.
    Let it open up as this wordless ‘thoughtless reality’. Running off with concepts happens BUT ‘who’ is the one that believes that ‘he or she’ EVER left THIS clear and present presence?
    It is ALL stories. The resting in ‘what I truly am’ cannot be brought about by any ‘willfulness’ and any effort to bring it on is actually just more bondage. This is why all methods and all practices don’t work. The one who is trying to convince you that they work is the same guy that is selling you a sacred concept. He benefits by your imaginary bondage of self. He may even tell you that there is no self – but he will not give up his own beliefs in methods and practices – why? Because it pays the bills and living a high lifestyle is not cheap. He is a celebrity now – he has an image to keep intact.
    He is NOT interested in letting all that slip away by getting down to the core issues.
    I know that speaking about this only gives it some seeming reality and so it is counter productive, so to speak. But the thing is that the beliefs and ALL the stories are just appearances. Not recognizing that is at the core of all our problems.
    To say that there are no problems does not get the message across usually.
    You can pick up any ‘Spiritual magazine’ and go through it – I doubt if you would find all that much in it to compare with what has been shared in these comment pages over the last few months. In fact if someone was smart, they could compile a magazine from them. But the majority only want glossy concepts and pretty pictures with editorials full of bias and advertisements selling every conceivable ‘gadget’ and ‘Intensive Courses’ on this that and the other. Whucka Mucka Workshops as one ‘teacher’ called them.
    Side Show alley. “The Mind Body Festival” or whatever fancy name they dream up to sell their conceptual stuff. Of course it is not all rubbish. Some of it is more or less ‘clean’. Ah, its all concepts.

  107. Posted by George Holbrook on 11.16.08 2:58 pm

    Ralph said reg the ‘false self” that it will perhaps see itself as false, it must look at itself and with true honesty. With all due respect, how can an assumption, a concept, a mere figment of imagination, a non entity, a fiction do such things? It can’t do a damn thing because it is simply not present at all.

  108. Posted by Ralph on 11.16.08 4:53 pm

    Simple George, just look around you , including yourself and you will see that almost all are asleep. We live in a world of separation and when I say we, I mean the false self, in reality there is ‘no other’. Don’t try to figure it out, the mind cannot get this. As Gilbert would say ‘just see’ .

    Of course, there is only the One and not even that. Awareness is.

  109. Posted by George on 11.16.08 5:32 pm

    Why do you bring Gilbert into everything, Ralph? Can’t YOU SEE without Gilbert’s help? Stop this kiss ass business. You are making Gilbert sound like a cult Guru. Speak for yourself.

  110. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 5:48 pm

    Looking and Seeing are not the same. A ‘person’ looks from a posture in the mind.
    The only seeing that is happening is not ‘looking’.
    Everything is contained in the seeing.
    The ‘looker’ is contained in the SEEING…..and the moment this is recognized it is known that the SEEING is from beyond all things.
    The same equation applies to the ‘thinker’. In the moment this thinker is recognized as a mere thought it is instantly known (without a knower) that this KNOWING is beyond all things.
    SEEING and KNOWING are ONE. Two words for the ONE (non) THING.
    As the first Alchemist said: All things are of ONE substance.
    We can pull those words apart, like a child with a Lego set – because words are made of letters – seemingly separate ‘things’. But can you pull yourself apart? SEE what you are made of?
    There is no self, false or otherwise. The word self or I are only useful tools for language, for communicating. They are also the ‘hooks’ that belief weaves its stories around.
    SEE that weaving in action and the belief in it dissolves by itself.

  111. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 5:57 pm

    George, I can see why you chose Chaos as an email address. First you confirm there is no separate entity and then you have a go at Ralph for not speaking for him self. Huh?
    What self can there be? By your own sproken wisdom that doesn’t make much sense.
    Maybe we should quote George instead – see how George copes with being a fictional cult guru. If we keep this up we might be able to raise the friction and get a bonfire going – burn some witches and gurus.
    P.S. If ‘people’ can stick to one name for themselves on their comments title – we may be able to curb some confusion.

  112. Posted by Sandy on 11.16.08 6:01 pm

    I read this blog everyday. I downloaded Bob and John to my Ipod and listen everynight over and over again.

    One hour I’m thinking yes, there is no me and as Bob says ” One essence appearing as everthing!” Yeah!!!

    Then the next hour I’m having thoughts of guilt and thoughts of how pissed off I am because I wanted my life to be different. Ha! I know you will say ! Who’s life?

    Sometimes I think I would be better off to just say fuck it and stop trying so desperately.

    My question is: Will it dawn on me one day that I have no need for further help like it has for so many of you?

    I appreciate anything you guys and gals could share. Thanks

  113. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 6:16 pm

    Find that which is the same…that which does not change…..no matter what ‘hour’ it is and no matter what the thoughts are about. That unchanging essence is what ‘appears’ to dawn. The Sun is shining in the Sky. It does not come up or go down – it only ‘appears’ to rise and set for ‘the planetary body’ – the name and form.
    Will it dawn on me one day? There is only THIS day – THIS moment. ‘Who’ is waiting for what? SEE now. It is the only time there is.

  114. Posted by George on 11.16.08 6:32 pm

    Gilbert,

    Don’t jump to conclusions. You have an overactive imagination. I dare you to check the URLS, you will find we are not the same. Then you will have to eat humble pie. What happened? Your self image got hurt. You say I am the same as Chaos. Why did you stop at that? Why did you not include others too who have spoken their mind here.

    You know in your Heart what I told Ralph is true. You know full well the limitation of language. So don’t twist the word “self” to suit your silly baseless argument. The word Self has also been used to mean Presence Awareness, Cognising Emptiness and so on. When I said speak for yourself I meant just that.

    You are a cult Guru, my dear friend. People like Ralph and others are just scared of you. This is your website and I can understand you have to be in charge. But the butt kissing that goes on here to impress the Gurus is no worse than other satsangs. As for me I like to speak my mind. If I am wrong in my postings on advaita then I am willing to stand corrected. But don’t accuse me of baseless indescretions. That is unbecoming of you. I am only interested in advaita and nothing else. If you want to ban me that’s fine. But someone has to call a spade a spade besides you.

  115. Posted by tomvds on 11.16.08 7:33 pm

    Following is a Suggestion for the producers UGC for a new guest: Rupert Spira;
    He seems bonafide to me.

    Hi Dorothy and Sandy, You might like this too:

    Following is a guided experiment for seeing who you truly are from an interview with Rupert Spira:

    “We have this idea that what we’re looking for has some objective element. That it’s not just this seeing here. What we truly want has no objective qualities. It’s nothing to do with mind and body. Because It’s not an experience in the mind it’s not an experience in time and space. If we’re expecting an objective experience that expectation will seem to prevent this realisation to take place. What we are in our deepest self has no objective qualities. Does what I truly am have any objective qualities? It’s very obvious to you that you are present. Because we are hearing something. ‘Something’ is aware. We don’t even label It. It’s ‘something’ . What ever It is. And it’s concious. It’s hearing and seeing. We don’t know what It is . There is ‘something’ present that’s concious. Let’s call it ‘something’. We don’t have to know what it is. Everything that’s experienced in the objective realm is experienced by this ‘something’. It might be thought, sense-experience ; mind body and the world. And there is something that’s experiencing that. The simplest fact of this experience; Let’s look at that. We turn our attention toward that. See if you can find that wich is experiencing. What do we see, what do we find. Let’s say you find something. Immediately that would be an experience. So It has no objective qualities. So it is a field to wich our objective exoerience happens. it has no objective qualities. And yet we know that it’s undeniably present. How do we know it’s limited then?; From our experience we know It’s undeniably present yet it has no objective quality . How do we know it’s limited? How do we know It’s located in the head ? It’s an assumption that it is located somewhere. How do we know it’s limited when it has no objective qualities. Nobody has ever experienced awareness in the body. Just this fact has extraordinary implications. Just that fact . Which is just a simple fact It means that the ‘I’, the true I that thinks and feels has no location. We don’t need to say what it is . Because It is what we are.”

    Google search his name for rupert spira’s site (he’s also an artist who works with ceramics); Don’t forget to check his interview-page !

    PS:
    “Do not seek the truth,
    only cease to cherish your opinions.”

    - Zen saying

  116. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 7:55 pm

    Beautiful. I love it. Don’t go jumpin’ – good advice bro’. We dance around like roosters in a hen house. Maybe you kissed a few too many butts yourself my friend. If you think I am flattered by any of the comments on these pages, you is mistaken bro’. Eyez jus’ tossin’ the salad bro’. We gotta give the readers some sustenance. All the clean smooth accurate talk serves its purpose and there is plenty of that here. But like any good newspaper, you gotta have some cartoons in there somewhere just to throw a bit of contrast in. There is no point in pretending to be beyond the ‘personal’ coz you’d be just fooling yourself, ain’t that right? – especially when you snap on the bait so quick. Go listen to the programs again. But hey, wait a minute, nobody tells you what to do, right?
    It is all in the programs. That is what this site is all about – not the back room punch ups where the nutters go to prove a point or kiss some butt.

  117. Posted by George on 11.16.08 8:34 pm

    Maybe you should listen to Sailor Bob once again. You are just like the other satsangh gurus in the market, only difference is you don’t have the money. What a shame because you certainly deserve it. As for “There is no point in pretending to be beyond the ‘personal’ coz you’d be just fooling yourself, ain’t that right?” that certainly applies to you more than anybody else. Its a case of the pot calling the kettle. You a student of Sailor Bob, my foot! Don’t insult your Guru.

  118. Posted by Ralph on 11.16.08 8:39 pm

    Wow !! based on some of the recent comments, it looks like someone is serving booze at the UGC cafe.

  119. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 9:03 pm

    Once again you take the words to be somehow real. You point the finger at me and use my ‘own words’ in an attempt to reveal my shortcomings. Don’t you see that it is just a game? Apart from that, I never said I was a student of anyone. My student days are well over – but it looks like you are still learning. I can toss around ‘personal’ insults just like anyone else. They don’t hang around here long. But there are a some folks who have been hanging onto some past altercation with this ‘me’ for years. The hanging on in those ‘persons’ revolves around their own ‘me’.
    I don’t have a spiritual image to uphold. I have no agenda to fulfill and there is nothing going on here about anything to convince anyone about anything. If we just leave it alone things will naturally settle down again. Actually I am inclined to think that Bob maybe the one laughing the most about all this nonsense. He takes a look at the comments now and then. Bob is not a guru and he will tell you that himself. He doesn’t have any students either. He holds meetings, not satsang, and there is simply an open discussion that happens.
    All this ‘personal’ nonsense is simply an ‘indicator’. If there is some engagement with it there, then isn’t it a potent opportunity to SEE where it is ‘catching’. But I see that this comment may well just fan the flames of the ego. And another comment will pop up, full of ‘personal accusations’ aimed at ‘ME’. So, the whole point of this site is missed once again. Slay the Dragon St. George, don’t play games with it. The ‘creature’ may snap off your head if you delay it too long.
    I apologize to all those who are offended by these childish mind games.
    As I said once before – listen to the programs. Make some comments about them – there is no point in taking punches at ‘me’. It is a matter of mistaken identity isn’t it?

  120. Posted by guy fawkes on 11.16.08 9:17 pm

    With these recent comments I feel I don’t get the transmission here, I get when I’m sitting in the angellike presence of Adya and I’m receiving sweet Shaktipath! Remember all you need is Love, love, love,…

  121. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.16.08 9:47 pm

    This is written from the perception that I AM a separate individual:

    I spend my days in hopes that “Something” will click and I will “Get” this stuff.

    I am told that “I” will Never get this, yet “I” pursue this like a drug addict.

    I Read:
    “No one can convince you of this – it must arise as an undeniable Seeing-Knowing.
    Only then will the mind ‘take a pregnant pause’.
    In that pause the discrimination between knowing and belief happens.”

    Yet, I want to be convinced and I am at times…..but all that fades because the convinced mind or thoughts Only arise and fall in THIS space like awareness.

    I see statements like:
    “When the levy breaks it takes awhile for the dam to empty.”

    The mind or thoughts arise and want to know what “Awhile” means and then “Waits”, once again for the “A While” to get here, but it Never does.

    So Yea, I read:
    “But the thing is that the beliefs and ALL the stories are just appearances. Not recognizing that is at the core of all our problems.”

    I DO recognize this, yet the play of thoughts still captures my attention and I follow them to whatever end… and then they are replaced by other thoughts.
    I SEE this happen while its happening… like … Ahhhh, mind is following this thought into the future…..etc. etc.
    I KNOW that I am NOT these thoughts, that they are temporary so i look back at the source of the thought and I find “Something”called “Nothing”…. hmmm, tastes like chicken… how come so many animals taste like chicken? How come I don’t eat a chicken and say, “wow that tastes like Rabbit, or Snake, or turtle… do you get my drift?

    I Read:
    “In the moment this thinker is recognized as a mere thought it is instantly known (without a knower) that this KNOWING is beyond all things.”

    YES, YES, YES,….. HOW MANY times have these moments of “Knowing” come and gone in awareness….. Soooooo many times I have known that, yet once again…
    That knowing comes and goes, can’t be understood or grasped. Man, It seems so real when the perception/feeling of “NO ME” somehow “Takes Over” and I am 100% convinced that I have tasted the “Divine” and How could I have ever missed that, it is Soooo Simple… Bla Bla Bla… AND Then… I awaken to find, still in my mind, that empty feeling I’d left behind. What is the reason, do I search in vain, grasping for answers, creating my pain.

    Here’s the kicker…. I am Invited by someone whose “Pointing” I really trust, to give it to me straight, and for “Free” and I flee like I will lose my life. Kinda reminds me of a story that Gilbert told about a man who finds GOD, finally….. Becomes too afraid to knock on the door, but then goes around telling people that he knows where GOD lives.

    Hey, I’ll kiss the butt of a Rhino if that’s what it takes~

    WHO is the “I” that is asking all these questions… (“I”) Really don’t know~????

    Just Babbling~
    Mark

  122. Posted by tomvds on 11.16.08 10:12 pm

    Hi Mark,

    Hopefully you sustain serious neck injury pretty soon turning your head every time someone points a finger. Just ‘do’ it yourself for once?!? Are you aware? Yes! Is it something you can point to as something objective, that what’s aware? No! Is it located then, somewhere? Is it limited? Is it in the Body, brain? No! Can it be separated from experience?No! Will you have an advantage over others with this newly found awareness? No, that’s bullshit, go read ‘the Secret’ or something ;-)

    Ciao,
    tom

  123. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.16.08 10:44 pm

    Knowing that there is real sincerity in that comment… somewhere….., despite the interesting delivery…..
    Thanks Tom

  124. Posted by gilbert on 11.16.08 11:04 pm

    Tom. There is no need for such crass statements like the neck injury buddy. Try and keep it civil.
    As a sign of respect I will cease to make any comments here on these pages. Maybe others will follow this example.
    If the comment pages turn into bickering nonsense they will be deleted.
    The programs speak for themselves.

  125. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.17.08 2:40 am

    Actually, Thank you Tom, and beings I am a carnivore………….

    I’ll consider this statement the top slice of bread:

    Hopefully you sustain serious neck injury pretty soon turning your head every time someone points a finger.

    THE MEAT:
    Just ‘do’ it yourself for once?!? Are you aware? Yes! Is it something you can point to as something objective, that what’s aware? No! Is it located then, somewhere? Is it limited? Is it in the Body, brain? No! Can it be separated from experience?No! Will you have an advantage over others with this newly found awareness?

    The Bottom slice:
    No, that’s bullshit, go read ‘the Secret’ or something …………..

    Sorry G

  126. Posted by Bill Tys on 11.17.08 7:36 am

    The inumerable, endless and unstoppable thoughts and concepts continue to arise…

    When the next one arrives…do what John Wheeler suggests! Look and see what that thought or concept is appearing in…then as John writes above…

    “If this is not really clear, any other pointer is bound to either (be) misleading or misunderstood. This is not so much about the nature of appearances, or whether or not there is a me or not, or whether or not there is or is not suffering, etc. Those points all find a natural resolution — in clearly recognizing the positive truth of your being. Most people checking into non-duality tend to miss this key point. ”

    There are so many pointers…look and see what they arise and disappear in…

    Clearly, it is the undeniable and indescribable natural state.

    You are prior to anything arising in the mind…

  127. Posted by nathan on 11.17.08 8:08 am

    “…the cold passion for truth hunts in no pack”

    all of this is about getting to the truth of what YOU are…right?

    how easily it all gets derailed.

    the belief of “I” is the single belief upon which ALL other beliefs are predicated.

    no need to go on some introspective ideological witch hunt to uncover every single belief system or conditioning or whatever…what good are beliefs if they have nowhere to stick? what is happening NOW? where are yesterday’s insights? who was the genius that had it a second ago but not now?

    knowing is happening…you aren’t doing it…it seems as though the truth of ‘mind’ is in un-knowing…let being take care of the immediate…it does regardless!

  128. Posted by Sandy on 11.17.08 11:56 am

    Gilbert thanks for this pointer,

    “Find that which is the same…that which does not change…..no matter what ‘hour’ it is and no matter what the thoughts are about. That unchanging essence is what ‘appears’ to dawn.”

    Instead of dwelling on negative thoughts I’m having a look at that which is the same and does not change….

    tomvds thanks for this pointer, and the link to Rupert Spira!

    “Nobody has ever experienced awareness in the body. Just this fact has extraordinary implications. Just that fact . Which is just a simple fact It means that the ‘I’, the true I that thinks and feels has no location. We don’t need to say what it is . Because It is what we are.”

    I had to read that over and over: “nobody has ever experienced awareness in the body”

  129. Posted by gilbert on 11.17.08 6:34 pm

    This is just a reminder that the transcript of Bob Adamson’s Interview with Areti is available as a booklet.
    It is available by going to my website http://www.shiningthroughthemind.net and using the donate tab on the main page. Donate $15US and put a note that it is ‘the booklet’ you wish to receive and it will be posted el pronto. We have not set up a separate ordering system for the booklet as yet. This booklet is a remarkable document and anyone who reads it with an openness and a willingness to drop their ‘old ideas’ has an opportunity to truly recognize the essential ‘pointers’ that remove all doubt. The booklet, of course can be read while listening to the interview (2 parts) thus overcoming any accent difficulties.
    I am of the opinion that it was the transcribing of recorded meetings (for Bob’s first book) that ‘broke the ice’ for me some years ago. I also stopped reading the words of teachers from other traditions, because that just became confusing. This announcement needs no comment responses, thank you. Warm regards – Gilbert.

  130. Posted by The Feral Dream on 11.18.08 4:10 am

    Gilbert – “Why do I even both doing this? Where are the genuine folk who don’t have some silly name to hide behind? I might as well change my name to Sri Sri Poo Poo Bum and just join all the nutters.”

    Gilbert, some of us are lurking but listening, without getting into the drama. Had my share of years of guru bashing, this guy is True, that guy is false, etc etc. The people who do that here are novices, imo. Like I told Scott, there are e-groups out there that feed on this, where the raw emotional hunger to prove ones guru true and the others as false is like a blood lust….. been there, done that, tired of it. Its seems so silly now.

    I had one consultation with John which serendipitously happened right after reading your e-book (which is awesome and set the stage, so to speak). The Fear that came up when i saw that i and everything in my so called life was an assumption, that the house was infact empty…. can only be described as death. There is so much invested in the assumtions see….

    I completely resonate with Mark’s comment “Kinda reminds me of a story that Gilbert told about a man who finds GOD, finally….. Becomes too afraid to knock on the door, but then goes around telling people that he knows where GOD lives”.

    However, I am knocking on the Door again. It can’t help it. I know talking to John is going to be the end of me but i can’t help it. I can only think of a moth going at a flame, cheesy and cliched though the analogy is, its apposite.

    The expectation here was that Truth was an experience of being suffering-free that I would have, a state I would be in. Meaning, *I* would continue to be around but experience lack of suffering. I didn’t contend with *I* being snuffed out. Its not that *I* would not suffer, rather, the sufferer is snuffed out. Without a sufferer there can be no suffering. I seem to have missed that small point and its ramifications :)

    Anyways just wanted to let you know Im grateful and that this is being heard.
    thanks
    S

  131. Posted by gilbert on 11.18.08 11:49 am

    Yes…..I am Awake.
    ‘Who’ is it that makes a ‘big deal’ out of that simple fact: ‘I am Awake’.
    It is all concepts, stories. Belief in the story cannot remain once it is truly looked into.
    It is very simple. ‘We’ make it all complex and get caught up in our own ‘rope’.
    The ‘I’ turns into a rope of bondage once it is embroidered upon…..added to.
    The one who is bound is not ‘here’ in the clear and empty nature of mind.
    What I am pointing out is extremely subtle……see if you can catch it…..right there where you are SEEING from…..where the SEEING is happening there is NO ‘you’……there is no one bound to words and stories. ‘Stay’ there for a few moments and SEE – KNOW……..it is so obvious – yet quite subtle………everyone misses it.
    As Nisargadatta says: “You are bound to miss it because you are trying to grasp it with a concept”. (or words close to those)
    The next program for the Urban Guru Cafe will appear fairly soon. It is something quite different to the rest and it will be of interest to many I am sure.
    We may also venture into some comedy soon – there is nothing like a good laugh to clear the cobwebs.
    Best recent quote: “My fellow prisoners” spoken by a political hopeful – it wasn’t one of our popular gurus.

  132. Posted by Mike in SF on 11.18.08 5:33 pm

    I look forward to the next show Gilbert. Thanks again for all the work you and Areti put into this site.

    Mike

  133. Posted by Mark Ellis on 11.18.08 10:11 pm

    Thank you Gilbert and Areti~! (Oh Yea, AND the “Sound Guy”)
    132 comments, breaks the previous 129 record.
    Minus the deleted ones….. UGC IS on a roll<>>< <> :)
    We are fortunate indeed!
    Warmly,
    Mark

  134. Posted by gilbert on 11.18.08 11:46 pm

    The stats on this month have almost reached last months bumper figures and we are just over half way through the month. – Gilbert.

  135. Posted by R.K on 12.17.08 11:14 am

    First of all thanks to all for the podcasts, they are direct and simple. It is much
    better to listen to these than be lost in books. I have newbie question:

    I do not understand this notion of “awareness”. To me it is just a concept,
    no more real than a thought. Here is some more explanation of what I mean by this:

    In deep sleep state there are no thoughts, which implies that there is no mind.
    This further implies that there no “I-ness”. So nothing exists in deep sleep (Note: this is also a concept)

    In waking state, thoughts arise and there is an association of “I-ness” with them.
    However, the very notion of being “aware” of thought is: “just another thought”.
    For example, if we did not have any memory and a thought arises and disappears,
    then it is impossible to say that “I had a thought”.

    My understanding is this: Memory creates this illusion of “awareness”. We are aware of previous thought ONLY with a new thought. This causes past, present and future to arise.

    So, what is this mystical “awareness” that is all seeing/knowing? If this exists, then it should be seeing/knowing thoughts as they arise, not after.

    Can someone please clear up my confusion.

    Thanks and Regards.

  136. Posted by Ralph on 12.18.08 11:16 am

    Hi R.K.

    This mystical “awareness” that is all seeing/knowing is not ‘out there’.
    It is who you are. In truth, there is no other.

    Hope this helps in your investigation.

  137. Posted by gilbert on 01.13.09 8:17 am

    We have a concept about what awareness is. We have a label ‘awareness’.
    Awareness is not a ‘thing’ – it is not an object.
    It is No Thing.
    We cannot truly define what awareness is.
    By its ‘power’ all that appears is known and that includes any idea of being a ‘knower’.
    The mind tries to approach ‘awareness’ and the mind is stilled, it vanishes.
    Without thought there is no mind – what remains (always) is awareness.
    These words register and because the language has been learned, so the words are understood instantly. The imagined character ‘me’ is in the content of awareness. What you are is awareness, naked and untouched.
    Endless explanations on this question (or any explanation) all register on awareness. Where are you seeing from?
    In all honesty we cannot say where we are seeing from or where this awareness is located.
    It is everywhere, when and how.
    It is universal, timeless and indescribable.
    Like the wind, we only see the ‘effects’ of it.
    It is the spirit that moves all that there is.
    There is no out there or in here.
    One Awareness – One Being – One Consciousness.
    You are THAT.

  138. Posted by Randy on 05.23.09 2:43 am

    You must say something.

    The mind only deals in concept and will never understand what is being pointed to. It cannot. But it still needs a bootstrap concept to understand that there is a reality that can be seen. The mind can also understand, conceptually, that it, and the person it thinks it is, is not what does the seeing. It is the reality that sees itself. And, as Gilbert says, the mind vanishes in that seeing.

    Of course, the mind, and the person it thinks it is, is terrified of this “annihilation.” In quotes because something that was never there in the first place cannot be annihilated.

    So, it is not who you think you are that comes to this website to listen to these most excellent talks. Who you think you are comes here to realize it’s worst nightmare. Who you really are was here already. Who you really are brought who you think you are here because, in reality, what you believe to be your worst nightmare is actually your eternal peace.