Urban Guru Cafe

Discovering what you truly are

48. Paul Hedderman – In Recovery – Part 1.

Posted on 08.03.09 1:56AM under Paul Hedderman, Podcast

Paul Hedderman’s background has been with assisting those with addiction problems over many years. The 12 step program has some very potent ‘pointers’, which, by chance or some by other means, has assisted a few to go beyond the 12 steps. Paul is not talking exclusively about AA, the Big Book or the 12 step program here. Actually it is all closely aligned with what we discuss here at the UGC. It is a different slant on the same non-thing.

Zen Bitch Slap is Paul’s website, click HERE to go there after listening to the program.

Music includes: Massive Attack, James Taylor, Bob Dylan, Crash Test Dummies (Canada), James Reyne (Aussie), Gary Jules, DJ Cam Feat and Ray Charles. Doubt, Deliverance and The International.

The Urban Guru Cafe is a FREE podcast site. 48 free programs to listen to. Check out those programs you have not listened to so far. Donations may be made through the donation tab on the front page of the website beneath the coffee cup Logo.

48. Paul Hedderman Part 1 [ 26:27 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (2838)

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Posted by gilbert on 08.03.09 1:58 am

Well, here we go again. Another excellent program just for YOU.
Please make your comments here and join in the lively comment pages. You are welcome to share whatever questions and insights you may have. – Warm regards – Gilbert
Posted by suki on 08.03.09 8:19 am

Paul made a lot of salient pointers that came out of him like a machine gun in rapid fire succession.In fact I had to listen to the podcast a few times, to kind of absorb it all.Fascinating to listen to his responses that came so swiftly and direct, with basically no hesitation to Areti’s questions.
I kind of like his take on the habitual ‘self referencing’, that is the corner stone of one’s apparent suffering.He calls it ‘selfing’, the ‘primary disease’,a repetitive thought that anchors in one’s psyche as a ‘long lasting independent separate identity’.
This seems to be the lynch pin that holds the ‘me’ thought construct together and what gives it that sense of solidity or heaviness, which predominantly keeps the focus on itself.( a narrowing down and confinement of energy ) Often this leads to fewer adequate responses to life situations and more reactionary conditioned actions.( psychological pain/suffering ).

We don’t respond to what is happening in the present moment and instead we react to it from memory, either from the past or projected into the future.The constant referencing to the ‘me thought’ is what keeps one in apparent bondage.To see any thought as just a thought and not claim proprietorship is key. Paul phrases it as ‘immunity to thoughts’.

If you want relief from the ‘selfing’ virus, then innoculate your self with 100 ml of the potent medicine of ‘SELF KNOWLEDGE’!and realize there is only ‘BEING’.

Great program.Thanks to Areti, Gilbert and Paul for sharing.
Posted by Richard on 08.03.09 8:32 am

You sure I’m welcome to share insights and/or questions? Does that mean the nonduality police won’t be telling me, “Anything you say may be held against you”? (Ed: Keep an eye on this one – he’s trouble)

Before the show I went to Paul’s site and watched a video of one of his talks. Pretty good. Then I heard the show and enjoyed it. What he says is reminiscent of Bob’s non-meditation….the seeing, hearing, and speaking without a self being there…nothing added.

Other similarities as well, such as the non-existant independent self and the awakening to not being that.

Thanks Gilbert and Areti for another interesting show.

It was also good to hear a guest who had no accent.
Posted by gilbert on 08.03.09 1:39 pm

It never ceases to amaze how this basic ‘message’ re-appears in some many facets, as a clear invitation to recognize ‘what I am’. It feels good to bring a few of these clear speakers all together in one place so that so many can access whatever facet they need can be accessed. As Bob so clearly pointed out “This is not for the FEW” It is everyone’s right to be introduced to what they ARE. The introduction is only necessary because we have been ignoring our true nature. In one instant the recognition can ‘happen’. And even though the nature of the appearance may stay exactly the same as it ever is, something is known and cannot be forgotten again. Describing that ‘something’ is rife with possible misleading expressions. That ‘something’ is actually No Thing.
I have been scanning the net looking at what is out there, on this ‘subject’. There is an increasing amount of fairly clean stuff. There is a lot of messy conceptual stuff as well.
Well, spread the news about the Urban Guru Cafe and if you find someone who is expressing this ‘stuff’ clearly, without conditions being lumped on top, let us know.
Someone emailed me about Paul Hedderman a couple of weeks ago and here he is on the program. Mind you, some of the suggestions have not been followed up on because the suggested speaker is not clean and clear. It is the easiest thing to detect an ‘ego’ floating around in a speaker and because we take this seriously, we do not thrust such examples onto our listeners. Part two of Paul’s interview will appear next week.
Please share your comments freely here. Paul may even come on board and answer any good questions. There must be a few AA types who will find Paul’s delivery very interesting.
If you are in AA and find this program of interest, tell your AA friends about it. Spread the word. Let’s take this thing as far as it will go.
Posted by Wally on 08.03.09 3:12 pm

Great!!! this show is the best thing to come out of Australia since AC/DC (who I just saw in Foxboro Ma.) I enjoyed this episode although as a person who was a sober member of AA and a big book thumper for over 16 years, I have to say people in AA who love non duality usually always try to cherry pick quotes from the big book that sound non dual and try to carry this message and that message as they have been used to doing as speaking is such a big part of AA. I personally found I could no longer continue in AA as I had before because I no longer believed in this message. What is this message? That as a result of the 12 steps you too can have a spiritual awakening. This is a very different message from Advaita and should remain that way. AA’s traditions are clear about the fact that they donâ€™t want to be associated with any other personalities or entities. I love AA but I can no longer seek through prayer to improve on anything. Who or what would I pray to? I can no longer subscribe to steps, levels, paths, or a number of days to enlightenment. God doesnâ€™t remove charecter defects, and Santa doesnâ€™t bring toys to your house. How can we turn our will and lives over to god? Do I have a Will to turn over to something else? My life already belongs to what ever â€œthatâ€ is. There is nothing separate that can turn it over to something else.
Posted by gilbert on 08.03.09 3:50 pm

‘We’ cannot assume that the ‘message’ must fit into a certain ‘form’. ‘We’ all come from different backgrounds, so it seems, in the appearance. Whatever it takes to turn us around, so that we recognize our true nature, it is valid. No one is suggesting that there is a God to turn anything over to, in this program, in fact it was clearly pointed out that it is all concepts. Still, we all have a right to express whatever we need to here, so long as it remains decent and appropriate. Paul is probably a fairly busy guy, so we may not see him making comments or answering questions. The programs contain the basics and I suggest that you listen again. Things pop out more clearly the second time around, maybe.
Our brothers and sisters in AA have an agreement to remain anon. We respect that and abide by the ‘rules’. We do not mean to make a feature of the AA aspect of this program but it needed to be mentioned, simply because it is clearly present in the program. Let’s hope that Angus (of AC-DC) has a listen too and gives us a promo plug at the concerts. Ha. As if.
Posted by Any Prickles on 08.03.09 4:29 pm

“I fought against the bottle,
But I had to do it drunk â€“
Took my diamond to the pawnshop â€“
But that donâ€™t make it junk.” – Ten New Songs , Leonard Cohen
Posted by Su on 08.03.09 4:41 pm

Suki,
I liked the way you put the “selfing”.
For me that was the most salient pointer.
It was clear that this guy was clear within a few minutes.
Thank you for that Gilbert and Areti.
The only place resistance happens is in that ‘selfing’.
When my kids become kids, my bashed up car becomes the car, the leaking gutters simply become gutters – well there lies liberation from resistance.

And Gilbert in your new e book there was a pointer that was the perfect thwack to the head. You speak about you can’t have awareness aware of awareness – there is simply awareness.
Not two.
Posted by gilbert on 08.03.09 5:50 pm

Yes, Nisargadatta says “be conscious of this consciousness”. And it is a salient point, a subtle reminder. It is not an intellectual gymnastic trick.
However……. there is only one awareness = you are THAT.
Posted by Jeremy on 08.03.09 6:33 pm

Interesting take on this, yeah?

The “selfing” as the verb that creates the noun “self” is golden.

Gilbert, I live in a college town (the biggest one, Columbus, Ohio) and was thinking about trying to get this program on the radio. Do you have any suggestions that would help?
Posted by gilbert on 08.03.09 7:18 pm

What kind of Radio? College Radio? Sure, offer it to them. We had some exposure in California a few months ago ina University Radio Station. Not much came of it. All were studying hard I guess and not listening.
It would be good to get some exposure across the board. Some of the programs are suitable for radical radio and some are suitable for more general exposure.
We try to keep the standard high enough. I don’t think CBN or the BBC will take us on board but anything is possible. They will have to talk big bucks first, ha. Write to me for some tips on how to approach the local station. My contact details are on my website or you can go through the Urban Guru Cafe contact tab at the top of the front page below the coffee cup Logo. Warm regards – Gilbert.
Posted by Sheila on 08.04.09 3:19 am

Thanks for this amazing show! All three of my kids are heroin addicts. All have attempted to get clean via 12 step programs on many occasions. In Feb. I had my 2nd unsuccessful spine surgery. I refuse to take pain meds as I see sooo many addicts. The worry and pain and anxiety had completely taken me over and I was plotting my death. In March I attended a workshop on ‘The Work’ of Byron Katie and I literally felt like I had to hold on to something or I would float away. The day I ‘realized’ I Am not my thoughts was a momentous one! Since then incredible things have happened! My 20 year old came to live with me to get clean. He joined the Army and was working on getting in shape physically. I introduced him to yoga and he loves it. I did ‘The Experiments’ off Douglas Harding’s website The Headless Way with him and he had a spiritual awakening so strong he ‘felt’ others pain for several days and had to leave a birthday party being given for him due to not being able to be around drug addicts and their pain. He loves to watch Adyashanti videos and is reading his book! My daughter attended a Byron Katie workshop with me and was ‘gifted’ a stay at Katie’s Turnaround House and is now clean and a pro as self inquiry! My other son has 3 weeks clean now due to his car blowing up, losing his job, and his girlfriend (his connection) leaving him and being stuck at his Dad’s in BFE! I’m making CD’s of Paul’s podcasts now and sending them to him. I’ve been studying non-duality and it’s blowing my mind! Which is a good thing. I am sending a donation because I really want others to ‘realize’ who they really are and experience the freedom that comes with that!
Much LOVE!
Posted by suki on 08.04.09 3:23 am

Su,
Life is more fluid like and expansive when we don’t personalize events, situations and experiences and naturally more joyful.When attention/energy is no longer drawn into those ‘selfing’ thoughts, the focus kind of shifts to a deep and vast sense of seeing.
This induces greater stability in life and a sense of traveling lighter (paraphrasing Paul).Once the initial insight or cognition from where one is ‘Seeing’ from is realized,a subtle alchemical transformation may be perceived (everything is seen in a new light so to speak, but nothing actually changes – hence, subtle!)

Everyday problems lose their sting!as resistance diminishes and greater efficiency spontaneously emerges,to respond to come what may!Overall a sense of well being pervades.There is nothing outside the scope of ‘Being’, and you are ‘That’.

Warm regards,Suki
Posted by Wally on 08.04.09 4:07 am

This reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago that I havenâ€™t given much thought until now.
My friend was telling me how spiritual his sponsor was because he was giving his sponsor a ride home and the car broke down and smoke was pouring out of the hood and for my friend all the drama that goes along with this event started to happen, swearing, kicking things, he’s thinking how much all this is going to cost etc…
And there is his sponsor as calm as can be, reading the paper, not a care in the world. I remember telling him that doesnâ€™t make him spiritual he didnâ€™t care because it wasnâ€™t his car!!!!!!
Someone said itâ€™s a “case of mistaken identityâ€
I would love to have this perspective that whatâ€™s happening isnâ€™t happening to a me, isnâ€™t happening to my stuff, my family, and my money. I know buying into the story of me and my life is the problem yet thatâ€™s what happens.
Posted by Ron Marson on 08.04.09 5:14 am

This website is not about personalities, and yet when personalities do bump up against each other, so much gets revealed about life, the universe, and everything.
I’m referring specifically to dialog at the tail end of #47 spilling over to #48, with Richard wondering if he is welcome to share his insights on this forum, and Areti and/or Gilbert adding the cautionary note: keep an eye on this one – he’s trouble.

A question to all three of you (and others):

What is your understanding of being? Do you think being is personal?

Thanks.
Posted by Mike in SF on 08.04.09 6:18 am

I’ve been going to Paul’s meetings for a couple months now. Turns out he holds his meetings just minutes from where I live. What doesn’t come through in this podcast is just how funny he is. He sometimes has everyone in the room laughing. The tales he tells of his drinking and drugging days are hilarious.

Ron, your post highlights what confuses me about nonduality. Or at least what confuses me about people talking about nonduality. One minute they’ll say all there is is Being, or Awareness, and that there is no “me”. The next minute they’ll say something like, “Well, that’s how it happened for me”. What is this “me” they’re talking about? Is it Awareness? Has their identity shifted to the totality and so whenever they say “I” or “Me”, they’re talking about Awarenss? Or is there a back and forth kind of forgetting who they are, a kind of stepping on and off the stage of life?
Posted by Mike in SF on 08.04.09 6:50 am

Or, are the words “me” and “I” merely referring to the body? “I ate lunch”. “I went to Hawaii”. “I got into an argument with that guy”.
Posted by Richard on 08.04.09 7:12 am

Hi Ron,

In this forum my opening remarks were tongue in cheek and I’m sure Gilbert’s editorial comment was also with humor. Made me laugh. When I showed my wife his note about me: “may be trouble”, she said, “And he could add a ditto from me”.

Gilbert and I know one another and have met in a friendly sort of way.

Being is not personal. Nisargadatta’s guru told him, “There are no persons”. Bob Adamson told John Wheeler, “There are no persons”.

As Paul indicated, the separate volitional independent entity is merely a myth.

Best wishes,
Richard
Posted by Richard on 08.04.09 7:32 am

Mike,

I think it’s like the blind men feeling different parts of an elephant, each assuming an elephant to be like what they felt. Differing perspectives. (Poor analogy.)

There is the Absolute (unicity, oneness) and there is a display of That in the relative. Awareness is unchanging awareness, while that which appears within it are consensual and relative.

Nothing wrong with relating in the relative, while knowing from the Absolute (“Be in the world but not of the world.”~Jesus)

A Vipassana teacher said, “I know I am a bundle of energy but when talking to someone what should I say, “This bundle of enegy wants to relate with that bundle of energy”?

I find nondual-speak to sound affected and beginnerish. Just my opinion and who am I? No one.

And here I welcome corrections to any of the above, knowing all concepts to be fallible.

Best regards,
The cognizant energy expressing as Richard
Posted by suki on 08.04.09 8:01 am

Ron:
My understanding of ‘Being’, is that unchanging stillness like silent capacity which is amorphous by nature,where all sensory experiences and phenomena register.Being is all encompassing,there is nothing beyond it.When reading these words are you not looking from ‘Being’? (or simply known as ‘Awareness’)

Mike:
The words ‘I’ and ‘me’ are just figures of speech when communicating, not meant to imply a separate ‘self’.The very ‘Awareness’ that registers these words on the screen from your perspective is the same ‘Awareness’, that is typing these words!It’s totally borderless and indivisible.

Warm regards,Suki
Posted by gilbert on 08.04.09 8:35 am

Wow, all these bundles of energy relating to all these other bundles of energy – I might lose myself in all this energy flying around.
As the ancient Hsin Hsin Ming text says: When doubts arise, just say “Not Two”.
“One Essence expressing and appearing AS Everything” is the title of Bob last book.
In the appearance of things, I, Gilbert, chose the title of the book from the text it contains, as I did for his first book “What’s wrong with Right Now”. The single sentence titles say it all – One Essence, expressing and appearing AS everything, says it all. ‘I am THAT’ is an all inclusive statement.
Everything, means EVERYTHING, without a single exception.
Whatever it is that is happening here at the UGC, it is attracting a lot of attention ‘out there’.
And I mean a LOT of attention. In November I thought we had hit our peak but no, it just keeps climbing and the word is spreading far and wide beyond the limited ‘spiritual realm’ into the ‘open community’.
If I am not mistaken, I think the ice has cracked and the word is spreading rather rapidly. The so-called ‘tipping point’ may not be far off now. If I can be so bold and play with anticipation for a moment.
The clear standards ‘we’ here at the UGC impose on all the program’s content has proven to be right, in my opinion. Yes, I can have an opinion too.
A hundred years ago, in the appearance of time, such things as are being discussed openly here, much of this information was only spoken of behind closed doors and amongst a few ‘lucky and fortunate “ones”‘. Today, there is a sharing going on that is unprecedented and what is remarkable is that it is being ‘heard’ all over the place.
When things go off track, someone, anyone at all can step in and knock it back on track. Even so, some of the incongruous activity is often a pedagogical means of revealing ‘stuff’ and it is not merely erroneous crap.
If this site was to be squeaky clean and politically correct ‘all the time’ it would be less accessible for many of ‘us’.
Actually, I feel rather happy about what is happening here. It may not be appreciated by everyone but when you boil it down, there is some remarkable ‘activity’ happening here. AND there is an absence of a predominant GURU grabbing all the attention and imposing HIS ego. Some will point the finger at ME and say that I am playing that game quite often. Fair call – BUT there is ‘something’ quite innocent behind it all.
AND no one here is asking anything from any seeker here.
Apart from the mention of ‘donations’ now and then, which by the way seems to be something that many disregard, there is just a simple sharing going on PLUS some exceedingly CLEAR POINTING from ‘speakers’, not from one CAMP.
Well for what it is worth, that is my take on it.
When doubts arise, just say NOT TWO.
Posted by Ron Marson on 08.04.09 8:56 am

Hello Mike and Richard,

Speaking personally…,
Wait, there is no ‘person’.

Speaking non-personally from my own experience…,
Wait, there is no ‘my own’.

Speaking non-personally from experience…,
OK. That sounds clear.

Speaking non-personally from experience I would say…,
Wait, is this ‘I’ reference personal or universal? I see folks getting around this by using the passive voice or saying, “Over here, blah, blah, blah.” This is OK I guess unless there is trying (self-ing) involved. But what’s wrong with trying? Don’t I have to try and try and try until I just give up and experience the effortless flow of life that is always here, carrying me along? Seems true to ‘this one’. As has been said often here, every manifestation has its own particular validity. Nothing is wasted.

So just using language naturally, and not trying to be politically correct, this is how it seems to work for me:
1. I give up trying to figure things out. I KNOW I can’t know. I step off stage.
2. In not-knowing I see clearly. (This seems to be the natural function of simple impersonal being.)
3. In this clarity of being, all kinds of insights (mind translations) arise. These translations involve words like ‘being’ and ‘non-conceptual awareness’ and other pet words I THINK I know (but obviously don’t).
4. In thinking I know (and therefore that you don’t if you don’t agree with me), I stop knowing and step back on stage.

For me there is nothing wrong with relating in the relative, while knowing from the Absolute, UNLESS I identify with (believe) the translations that arise. Then I get lost in my own false arrogance, which happens all the time.
Posted by suki on 08.04.09 9:01 am

Wally,
There is not ‘your’ or ‘my’ awareness. That is a thought that comes up or arises in awareness.

There is not ‘your’ or ‘my’ thoughts. These are just thoughts that just arise in awareness.

The thought of a ‘me’, being a separate individual is just another thought that arises in awareness.

As an experiment see if you can locate the position, color, shape and dimensions of this ‘me’?

There is only one ‘Being or Awareness’, without a second.

Not ‘my’ or ‘your’ ‘Being’. Just ‘Being’.

Warm regards, Suki
Posted by gilbert on 08.04.09 9:22 am

In this immediate experiencing, speaking happens, writing happens. WHAT remains uninterrupted?
All experiences are in memory and, so often, associated with ‘me’. A seeming trap for whom? ME.
The past is dead and gone, even a moment ago is gone, dead.
The IMMEDIACY is all there IS.
There is NO answer in the mind.
You are not in the mind. You are NOT the ‘me’. Full Stop.
Posted by Richard on 08.04.09 9:35 am

Hi Ron (and group),

I enjoyed your recent post.

I think, when one gets down to it, there is nothing wrong anywhere. Not even the identifying “with (believe) the translations that arise.” Not even getting “lost in my own false arrogance, which happens all the time.”

It’s all the play of the one Consciousness and not a right/wrong game imo. “Not two”, as Gilbert reminds us.
Posted by gilbert on 08.04.09 10:31 am

It reminds me, not sure why, of the Jewish mother who buys two shirts for her son. When her son comes home from work, she presents him with the shirts. “Thank you mother dearest” and he goes off into his room to try them on. After awhile he comes out wearing one of the shirts. The mother waves her hands in the air and blurts out “What’s wrong with the other one?”.
Posted by Sully on 08.04.09 2:10 pm

I think I just got “bitch-slapped”!!

100% of the time my thoughts are about a “me” & there is no “me”!!!! What a freaking joke!

I sure hope I remember this tomorrow when I take another bite out of the shit sandwich called life!
Posted by gilbert on 08.04.09 3:18 pm

The mind is TIME. The ME is TIME. No one spends any time and time never runs out. There is ONLY NOW. See if you can detect this NOW slipping away into the past.
Okay, now there are many who have been listening to these programs for months.
Let me throw a question at you.
What is it that stops you from recognizing what is being pointed out?
Surely this ‘point’ is the singular factor that ‘should’ be of the most interest.
If you are genuine about this ‘venture’ of discovering your own true nature – and given that hundreds of clear ‘pointers’ have passed by – so why hasn’t one knocked your socks off? Could it be that there is a subtle belief that ‘someone’ is going to ‘get something’?
Belief in conceptual stuff is a habit and habits can be broken.
It is all impersonal. No one gives a fig whether you ‘get it or not’ – so if you don’t really care – what the #%&* are you doing here listening to this stuff for?
Is it just that you are bored out of your brain and want some cheap entertainment?
Or what?
How could anyone listen to a dozen programs and not be knocked off their perch?
Of course I am stirring things up here. Who is offended? Who is upset?
Who is avoiding reality?
Infantile grandiose behavior and feeding that self-center with ‘special knowledge’ ain’t going to ‘do it for ya’. I know because I did for for many years and it is just a waste of non existent time, if that makes sense.
Every program has the potentiality to knock ‘you’ out of the ring.
Whatever resonates with you – go back and listen to it again and again.
The message cannot fail – but you have to HEAR it. Give it a chance.
What is resistant? Find out what that resistance is and it will dissolve by itself.
Running around in circles is no fun – and decades of it can turn very sour.
Warm regards – Gilbert (the Button Pusher’s cousin)
Posted by Any Prickles on 08.04.09 4:07 pm

“there is nothing wrong anywhere.”
Not-Two is non-negotiable. It doesn’t mean mending the peaces ‘here’ and ‘there’ with conceptual non-dual glue; like the jewish mother there is still an implication of an imaginary ‘other’.
Posted by Ralph on 08.04.09 5:29 pm

The truth of who I am will or will not happen. I guess it all depends on me and I don’t even exist. There is the paradox ….. and yet, the seeking is still there, why? I wish I can just listen to the pointers and do a full stop ! … but who am I kidding ???

There is nothing to get…. I get that… and yet I still try to get….why do I do that ?
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 12:21 am

Why? Belief that you are doing something. You NEVER did a thing. You are being LIVED. Recognize that.
There may be a belief in an idea that there is some getting and becoming and a process. It is all based on erroneous concepts that can NEVER stand up to an investigation. HOW can a concept derail what you ARE?
The truth of what you are already IS.
It can never happen as a distinct ‘event’ in time – it is ALL apparent ‘events’ without a single exception. Innately we KNOW this. What needs to be known is known in the immediacy. Memory is NOT the KNOWING.
What you are is time-less. It is BEING.
This is why the pointing has been ruthless.
Ralph you keep insisting that there is a ‘process’ and that we all need to go through the shit. The pointers have been expressed over and over.
The full stop is EASY.
If someone shouts at you to “shut up” – thought stops for a moment.
You can do the same for yourself.
Just pause a thought.
Don’t go off with some ideas about ‘who’ is going to stop thought – that is just more excuses.
If you are genuine about this, pausing a thought is easy.
What opens up in that pause-ation is very subtle.
Get a taste of it over and over.
No one can do it for you.
Get a taste of this non-conceptual awareness.
It is actually ceaselessly present – it does not come and go. It is the thoughts that come and go. They appear on the non-conceptual awareness.
Just SEE and KNOW that what you are does NOT come and go.
This factor is the most obvious and yet because of belief in the translating story that plays itself out, we do not notice the significance of this uninterrupted PRESENCE.
It is Cosmic – it is NOT personal.
If this factor strike ‘home’ then a sense of wonder may arise.
There is No duality in Non Duality.
Full Stop.
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 1:14 am

NOTICE:
John Wheeler and Mark West will be in Melbourne around the 22nd of August for about a week. They will be at Bob’s meetings. So, anyone interested in attending those meetings, come along. the regular times apply. Email me for details if you require exact details. If you are coming from far away, I can suggest some reasonable accommodation near by. – Gilbert.
Posted by Sully on 08.05.09 3:52 am

Hey Cousin (Button pusher)

Thanks, I needed that!
Posted by Any Prickles on 08.05.09 6:11 am

Recognize that the ‘full stop’ is already in ‘place’. The only thing ‘you’ can do is to start ‘It’ up again; the spinning of habitual thought (e.g.: selphing). The hands of thought are made of smoke, they offer no grip on the openness in which everything appears. Look without relying on memory.
Posted by Any Prickles on 08.05.09 7:19 am

Without relying on thought, ‘estimate’ yourself; Where are you in all of this?, Is there a limit to It?. Of all ‘things’, made of such stuff that dreams are made of, It’s the most familiar; You are that ‘stuff’, It Is All You.
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 8:50 am

One of the most famous texts of all ‘time’ is the Bhagavad Gita.
It manifested in the appearance for the apparent benefit of all, only because (in the story) at the edge of the battle field, Arjuna got down out of his chariot…..because he did not want to fight. What stopped Arjuna in his tracks was that he recognized his ‘brothers’ amongst the ‘enemy’.
Krishna sang to him a song (the gita)……to reveal to Ajuna, his own true nature. (not two)
The resonance of the song (the message) is the factor that dissolves the seeming separation.
This is why it is said to find the resonance in being. Whatever messenger you resonate with, stay with the resonance. Don’t let any extraneous factors distract you. Sentiment, memory or habits are dead ‘things’ compared to the resonance in being. The resonance in Being is LIFE.
The word ‘Krishna’ means consciousness.
Consciousness is the Lord of Time. All appearances and all ‘time’ appear ON Consciousness.
It is ALL THAT.

There is ONLY LIFE.

No one ever lived a life and no one ever died.

One Essence expresses and appears AS everything.

The messenger is useful, he is not something to turn into an Idol.

There is a popular saying going around at present. “You don’t exist”.
As a separate, believed in ‘person’, it is true, that ‘you’ does not exist.
However what you truly ARE is existence itself.
You ARE reality.
See if you can negate the fact of your own being.
In the very attempt, the believed in ‘you’ dissolves.
End of story. Full Stop.
Posted by tj on 08.05.09 11:54 am

“Whatever resonates with you – go back and listen to it again and again.

“pausing a thought is easy.
What opens up in that pause-ation is very subtle.
Get a taste of it over and over.”

Over and over. Again and again. That, to me anyway, seems like a process. Except for very few people the message needs to be heard repeatedly over time. That’s a process. All of these pointers, be aware of awareness, see where you’re seeing from, stay with the sense of I am, ask what am I, pause a thought and see.. require a seeming someone to do something. Right? At least it seems so.Awareness doesn’t need instruction do do anything, it’s fully here as the base. The process breaks down the ego structure…maybe. Sure from the absolute viewpoint there’s no process and no one to be on it. It’s always and ever aware.

“The full stop is EASY.” Sure I can pause a thought and have done so lots of time but nothing comes of it. Too subtle for ‘me’ I guess. Will keep trying. Good pointings.

I liked Paul’s way of speaking. A nice change from the usual non dual speak.

And a shout out to Sheila (08.04.09 3:19 am) on her seeing with Byron Katie. Byron Katie..did you catch that Gil? Isn’t she on YOUR list of unapproved gurus? Ha ha ha
Posted by suki on 08.05.09 12:14 pm

All phenomena is derived from the essence of ‘One singular Being’.

Being is not a derivative of anything,in fact it is No-thing and simultaneously Everything.

Beyond time,space and all dimensions.

Without directive and purpose,everything IS.

Is there Reality outside of Reality?

Is there Awareness outside of Awareness?

Is there Being outside of Being?

There is no separate, believed in ‘person’.Only impersonal thoughts mistakenly being personalized by other thoughts.Just see that these thoughts appear and disappear in that Awareness that does not change.That Awareness or Being is the context for all content;thoughts,feelings,emotions,memories,objects,in fact the whole Universe.It is the substratum of all existence,and ‘You Are That’.
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 12:52 pm

To any ME it will SEEM like a process. The me is nothing but endless process but the process, any process has NO duration at all. It is ALL appearance of ‘time’.
The IMMEDIACY is all there is.
Have a close look into this immediacy and SEE if you can find any ‘time’.
You KNOW that you ARE.
That is not a belief and it is not a process. It appears as a continuum or what we may call pure duration, no beginning and no end.
SEEING-KNOWING is not a concept. What you ARE is not a concept.
What is believed to be ‘me’ is a concept. It is transient appearance.
Very well, if that is what you wish to identify yourself as, then good for you.
It is an illusion.
To be disillusioned is not a negative thing. When the illusion is seen through, HOW can the illusion trick you EVER again, with the same intensity? It cannot.
This is why I say that there is NO point in pretending to KNOW ‘about non duality’.
You can ONLY BE THAT.
In being THAT, there is nothing to prove and nothing to lose.
‘Others’ are appearances in what I AM.

Nothing comes from stopping thought – YET the taste of ‘no mind’ is what is necessary.
When you see that in the absence of thought, with no thought,the presence of what you are does not fall apart or disappear. That is the uninterrupted experiencing, the naked knowing that IS the substratum of all existence.
No one can do it for you. All that can be ‘done’ is POINT at THAT which cannot be negated. When the mind tries to negate the ‘I am’ the one trying falls apart.
That is the pivotal point of revelation.
This message cannot be undermined – it is expressed in ever fresh ways but the CORE of it is the ESSENCE of what you ARE. It is only the so-called mind that resists the clear and obvious.
There is nothing more obvious than reality. It is NOT a concept. it is your very nature.
Posted by billtys on 08.05.09 1:07 pm

Right here, right now, there is knowing presence… or presence of knowing. That is happening right now…it is undeniable.

The presence is inseparable from the knowing and the knowing is inseparable from the presence…in fact the knowing presence is inseparable from what you are and inseparable from all appearance.

The knowing presence is ever present (even during sleep)…nothing could appear without the knowing presence. Awakefulness and sleepfulness appear in the knowing presence. Clarity and confusion appear in the knowing presence…

Nonduality is the knowing presence…the immediacy…and It contains all.

What could appear outside of this knowing presence?
Posted by Randall Friend on 08.05.09 1:19 pm

There are no “things”. It is the consistent belief in separate, independent “things” which confuses.

Look deeply at any “thing”. What IS IT? You can only give its name, but what IS IT? You recognize it by it’s shape or form, but what IS IT? What is it’s essence?

Can you ever pin down the true existence of that “thing”?

Look right now at literally anything – do you really know what it is? Not the relative appearance of it – computer screen, flower, whatever – but what REALLY is it?

We are stuck on the appearance – we believe that the result of what comes through the senses shows the absolute reality and essence of “things”. And then, of course, those “things” must be separate and “out there” apart from “ME”, over here or “in here”. This entire paradigm is false.

There is no “out there” as opposed to an “in here”.

The existence, not the appearance, but the existence of any “thing” is Wholeness, Completeness, Oneness. The real “you” is, then, the totality itself, existence itself. The thoughts which come up to create the idea of “ME” as a separate entity are “made of” that same existence.

Therefore there is nowhere to go and nothing to get. The activity of thoughts, the activity of seeking, is existence playing with itself, seeking itself. There is no one existing separately who will get it. There is no one existing separately to find it.

The separate entity is simply a play of existence. It is like the gold ring and the gold chain. The ring believes it is separate from the chain and therefore desires to be like the chain. All the while it misses it’s pure existence as gold. So the ring seeks to know what it is, but how can it find that it is gold? How can the ring, which is only a concept and never was apart from gold, find it’s essence as gold?

The ring says “I AM” – it knows it exists. But WHAT it is, it cannot say. It can only say THAT it “IS”. That IS-ness, is gold.

So ring never actually says anything – it is always gold – the ring-thoughts are “made of” gold. In reality, it is gold which recognizes it is not-ring, not-chain while simultaneously “being” ring and chain. But ring and chain are appearances of gold.

You are only pure Being/Knowing – taking yourself to be the separate individual there is a search for wholeness. You are already whole. Like the ring, the separate individual is only a convention, a name and form, a concept.

So realizing it’s true nature as gold and always gold, the gold goes on AS ring and chain without being bound by the concept.
Posted by billtys on 08.05.09 3:15 pm

The word ‘play’ in Randall’s above post is really worth looking at:

“The separate entity is simply a play of existence.”

Examine the immediacy. It is undeniable. How long is the immediacy? Or maybe how short is the immediacy? Is it one billionth of a nano second? Less?

It has no duration. It has no time aspect at all…yet time appears.

As the immediacy has no time…how can anything appear at all? For an appearance to be, it has to have a time and space aspect. Yet all there is …is the immediacy…so how can anything exist?

But again… all the universe is contained in the immediacy…

The separate and imagined entity is a PLAY of existence…it is an illusion…it is maya…that which is not!

The imagined entity does nothing.

Nevertheless…dancing and eating pizza happens!
Posted by Ralph on 08.05.09 3:52 pm

I am not my thoughts ….I know that… but how come the suffering is still there?
Am I the only one that still has suffering thoughts ? Call it an ‘appearance’ if you like but damn it , it sure feels real.

Are you free from psychological suffering simply by SEEING that you are not your thoughts? I wonder.

….. so yes, maybe we do need to walk through our shit to get cleansed.
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 4:06 pm

Do not wonder about this Ralph.
SEE clearly that you are not these thoughts that you name as ‘your thoughts’. – ‘my thoughts’.

Nisargadatta says: “They are not your thoughts. Thoughts appear on consciousness.”

Because this belief is not questioned, so the feeling gets added to the thoughts (quickly) and it all seems to be inescapable.

As Nisargadatta says: “Go the the root of it all – and cut the root.” (paraphrasing) In other words, don’t just pull the leaves off and expect the problem to go away. Cut off the supply of energy (belief) and it will wither away. I am not talking shit here. I know this to be true BECAUSE that is how it happened here. I would put it in different words but the core of it all is the same.
The MOST obvious factor is the most elusive, when we try to grasp this with a concept. You are totally free right now. It is only thought that tells you otherwise and ‘you’ believe it. Cut off the energy supply to these beliefs by questioning them most thoroughly. They will not survive, they can’t.
But if you keep insisting on being a ‘person’ with ‘conditioning’ then it remains impossible. What more can be done?
Posted by Ralph on 08.05.09 4:13 pm

Okay Gilbert, thanks , now I feel better, ‘my’ suffering has gone away.
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 4:37 pm

‘Your suffering’ never existed – and you take the prize – for what I am not sure.
Tell me how many friends actually want to listen to the stories of ‘my suffering’?
I sit in cafe’s sometimes listening to the stories of strangers and it is pathetic.
Mankind, apparently considers himself the crown of creation. But look at all the destruction that the belief in ‘ME’ spins out all over the place. Nations play the same game. What are we protecting and from what danger? It is all images in mind.
The religious images that we look up to, cannot be lived up to. So we punish ourselves and become slaves to images of perfection. It is all in a realm of imagination.
Take the meaning out of the story of me and what is left?
Try it and SEE – KNOW for yourself.
Doubt is a thought.
Posted by Ralph on 08.05.09 4:41 pm

By the way, have you noticed that I am speaking from the ‘relative’ point of view and you are speaking from the ‘absolute’ point of view.

… let’s be STILL and then we will both be speaking from the same place.
Posted by Charlie Hayes on 08.05.09 5:08 pm

Areti, hi, I finally got around to this one … thanks lots … this guy is so REAL and so spot-on … I love his way of sharing this Reality-Freedom … Being an East Coast American guy, I am just tickled by his “Brooklynese” accent. “Self-ing!” Way cool … WORD.
His discussion on “resentment” reminds me of a bit of babble I like a lot … “Harboring resentment is like taking poison hoping the other guy will die”.
Great Thanks to you, Paul. This is a gem!
And a word about these productions … Gilbert your Radio Days are showing through, this stuff is so well done. Kudos my friend!
Posted by Megan on 08.05.09 5:24 pm

With respect to ‘pulling it out at the taproot’… for years tried here ‘I’ tried to peel the skin off the onion doing inventories and working on ‘my’ character defects. Bob pointed out to ‘me’ that the ‘me’ that ‘I’ thought that ‘I’ was was a fiction… as Gilbert says ‘what conditioning is there right now if ‘I’ don’t think about it?’
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 5:58 pm

So, Ralph, the suffering is relative. Relative to what? ME.
It is the constant referencing to the ‘me of memory’ that ‘creates’ a bridge for the energy to flow into these fabricated forms. It isn’t a bridge over troubled waters. It is trouble.
As my grandma would say “Never trouble trouble, ’till trouble troubles you”.
We invite so much suffering in, because we refuse to investigate the ’cause’ – belief in ME.
Wasn’t the main feature of the Buddha’s revelation, that there is no ‘self’.
Well, find out if there is one?
If there was one, surely YOU would know it, without a doubt.
Self is just a word, a label. Labels are inert. Take the meaning out of them and what are they?
Sometimes I feel like an old sailor pissing in the wind. Sometimes it is better to make the blighters walk the plank.
“On the good ship Venus, by Christ you should have seen us………..etc.”
Posted by billtys on 08.05.09 7:38 pm

The natural functioning, like the seasons, just happens. When it is winter, winter is not saying “I wish it was summer”. When the tide is going out, the tide is not saying “I wish I was going in”. It all just happens…

The opposites occur…winter/summer…cold/hot…waxing/waning…
Everything just happens. There is no ‘I’ to alter or change things around. There is no reference point in nature.

Through our sophisticated circuitry we imagine that we are a ‘fair dinkum’ choosing, deciding and powerful entity and that we control events etc.

There is only an ‘imagined reference point’ here. This body is run by the same principles as the planets and the growing seed. This is evidenced by the digestion, assimilation and countless other programs that are going on in this body that are unseen and unknown.

The thought ‘I am’ is simply labelling the knowing presence, and from there we add name, position, wealth etc. But what are these thoughts and talking sounds that appear…they are just vibrations absolutely loaded with evaluation.

When it comes to the ‘imagined entity’, the imaginary ‘I’ tries to change or alter the situation. For example, if ‘I’ am suffereing, ‘I’ appear to try and change and alter the situation so that ‘I’ am not suffering. The ‘I’ has been enhanced and fortified by parents, teachers and society and is now so solid and real that we think these vibrations have great value and meaning.

The ‘I’ appears in the ever present seeing. The ‘I’ could not appear without the ever present seeing. The subject and object would not appear without the ever present seeing/knowing. One would conclude then that the ‘I’ is imaginary and has no independent nature of its own.

Bob often tells the story of the poker in the fire. The poker thinks it has all the qualities of the fire…hot and burning. But when the poker is removed from the fire, very soon the poker is no longer hot and burning…

The ‘I’…it appears in the seeing or the knowing presence…just like suffering thoughts appear in the knowing presence.

Everything appears in the knowing presence…without exception…all the aspects and characteristics…positive or negative…

Now having done the investigation there is nothing else to do except carry on. The sea will always appear blue even though an investigation reveals that the water is clear…but it will still continue to appear blue. You know a mirage does not contain water but it still appears like it is water.

The truth will set you free (someone said that)..and you will no longer be bound by appearances.

Having seen the truth of the matter that the ‘I’ is a fiction, even though the old habit of identification comes about, it loosens its hold.

The realization is just ordinary awareness. That awareness has many labels including the labels ‘knowing presence’…which is inseparable from what you are.
Posted by marian dhara on 08.05.09 8:11 pm

Is being personal? Well, examine the only proof of being that you have, the knowing â€œI amâ€.
It is a paradox, and you can only see it when you stop and examine the experience â€œIâ€ and the experience â€œamâ€.
I use â€œIâ€ ahead of any verb or action in order to make sense of and communicate my human experience (I live, I go, I speak). It describes the experience of being someone apparently doing a bunch of things, going through life however best I can, with my preferences and dislikes, just like any other so-called person. â€œIâ€ carries baggage, makes plans…
â€œAmâ€, the experience to be, is totally different: itâ€™s just that; the knowing, the absolute conviction that I am. It tells no stories, only that I exist, that I am here, that I am now, that I am present. Nothing else. The story of â€œIâ€ tells me a lot of things; I can know a lot of stuff about â€œIâ€. I canâ€™t know anything about being. It just is, I just â€œamâ€.
So if theyâ€™re so different, which is real? Which is true? Again, this is the paradox. â€œIâ€ feels very real, the story goes on and on. To deny â€œIâ€ and its story seems a pretty poor thing to do if itâ€™s purely intellectual. Experientially however, I see that being is larger than â€œIâ€. When I say â€œI amâ€, itâ€™s not â€œIâ€ (or any other thing) that is the subject of beingâ€¦ â€œIâ€ (and everything that is) is subject to being. Being is the common denominator of everything in the experience of â€œIâ€. Whatever it is that â€œIâ€ is experiencing, is â€“it has existence in the experience of â€œIâ€. I may not be sure or right about what it is that â€œIâ€ is experiencing, but if it is in â€œIâ€â€™s experience, then it is (even if I then find out I was wrong about what it was). So â€œIâ€ is in being, is being been by being, and is for being â€“just like everything else. We usually assume that â€œIâ€ is the most important thing in the universe and that, oh, it has being. But itâ€™s being that â€œhas Iâ€, itâ€™s being that is being â€œIâ€.
There can be no separation between â€œIâ€ and â€œamâ€. Here now, it cannot be one or the other, one without the other. â€œIâ€ is being, for being here now. â€œIâ€ is a matter of speaking, the way how I navigate and communicate in this life.
â€œIâ€ is also required to realize that I â€œamâ€, that â€œI am beingâ€. Then â€œIâ€ appears to become lighter, transitory and really not that important. In a way, it needs to be personal to realize that itâ€™s not, and that itâ€™s all inclusive.
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 9:15 pm

The iron rod in the fire gets hot like fire, it will burn just like fire – but take it out of the fire and it loses all those ‘qualities’ of fire.
Because the believed in entity is immersed in pure awareness, it appears to be the awareness. There is only ONE knowing happening. The ‘personal’ has NEVER had the ability to SEE or KNOW. The ‘personal’ is nothing but a description, a translation of mind of what is happening or of what is imagined that is happening.
‘When’ the seeing-knowing is recognized as the ‘fire’, as the true quality of ‘life’, then the belief in being a ‘person’ is discarded automatically. No one does this or any activity.
It is One Life animating the Whole.
Innately we KNOW this, because it is what we truly are.
Immunity to thought ‘happens’ when a potent taste of being thought free ‘happens’, which could be described as a simple recognition that I am not those thoughts.
What you truly ARE, you have always been and you KNOW it.
It is SO obvious, yes, even right NOW, that some break out into a laughing fit, once it ‘hits home’.
Posted by marian dhara on 08.05.09 9:45 pm

Gilbert,
if not on your list already, Rupert Spira (The Transparency of Things) would be a great candidate for an interview.
Posted by gilbert on 08.05.09 10:43 pm

NOTE: If you know anyone who is in AA, let them know, discreetly if necessary, about this particular program. I know of many who have been very happy to find it. Part two will be along soon.

We have made contact with Rupert amongst others, thank you.
We have some good stuff lined up. I have been pleasantly surprised at how many there are ‘out there’, presenting a pretty clean message. There is also a lot of rubbish too, of course. We are very intent on keeping things clean here, apart from a dash of entertainment now and then. We also are aware that things can get quite sterile if it is just endless talking, so we spruce it up with music and usually it contains some lyrics that are relevant to some degree. Songs are sometimes edited seamlessly to include the lyrics that are relevant. If you listen to the original songs, you won’t necessarily hear the same thing that you hear on the programs. Such information is unnecessary of course. It is all for the listening pleasure of our growing audience. Warm regards – Gilbert.
Posted by Ron Marson on 08.06.09 5:38 am

Thanks Marian for your insightful post regarding “I am”. I hope Gilbert invites YOU on the program.

You write: “I is being ‘been’ by being.”

What a priceless nutshell of a description!

And yet if I file this away in a back pocket of my mind as a favorite quote, and don’t see for myself that “I am being been”, I remain stuck (seemingly) in mind-time story telling.

Not a bad thing, that. Lots of drama and struggle and suffering to enjoy and keep ‘me’ apparently alive. But I’m tired of living in isolation.
Posted by gilbert on 08.06.09 9:36 am

In the clear space of immediate KNOWING, labels are imposed by what? Is it a mere reflection in the MIRROR (Clear Awareness). Why would intelligence play games of limitations with itself? Or is it merely erroneous beliefs tugging at each other?
Believing it is all real, these reflections play around AS IF they were indeed distinct living entities (me).
The entire manifestation is an appearance and is just like the entire reflection in a single ordinary mirror.
There are NO distinctly separate reflections in the mirror. It is ONE reflection – One mirror.
The nature of emptiness NEVER truly manifests as anything except AS the appearance of things. All things are One Thing or No Thing.
In the clear space of immediate KNOWING, labels are imposed by a mere reflection in the MIRROR (Clear Awareness).
WHO imposes labels upon emptiness?
WHO believes in these labels.
The appearance of all these thoughts that seemingly flow through you are ALL transitory.
The BEING-ESSENCE is untouched by any of these appearances.
What you are is uninterrupted presence…….no matter what happens, it is only an appearance of something happening.
Nothing ever happened in the manifestation.
Just like the mirror remains true and undistorted by whatever appears in it.
It never gets over filled with reflections and it is NEVER empty.
Its nature is emptiness but this emptiness can never be seen – all you see is the reflections. The reflections are not in the mirror – they ARE the mirror.
Everything IS awareness.

Another way to explore this is:

Take the meaning out of the story of me and what is left?

YOU give it meaning by believing in it.

The FACTOR that is most obvious is NOT in ‘the appearance’.

It is this clear seeing-knowing.

It is not a form or anything you can find.

It is THAT which is cognizing everything.

The frustration is only the mind trying to grasp empty space or trying to find its own origin.

Relax.

The obvious is truly obvious. You may even laugh your head off when it is recognized.
Every possible effort is made to assist you in recognizing your own true nature.
The pointing is ever fresh.
I recommend you read the free sample of my new e-book “Who do you think you are?” – the free sample is called “Without a reference point”.
It is on my website http://www.seeing-knowing.com in the Books Page…..see the main menu for a link.
Posted by Misc on 08.06.09 3:56 pm

How to not get caught up in mind traps? you might say who is getting caught up? but it happens anyway!
Posted by Any Prickles on 08.06.09 6:25 pm

“How to not get caught up in mind traps?”
“It is All THAT. The anger the fear,…” – Bob
The wind blows, the birds sing, the climate warms-up, the clouds pass by, the mind (habitual thoughts appearing) traps,…
It’s Reality keeping up appearances; One essence appearing as everything; “The mirror is never empty”
Posted by gilbert on 08.06.09 7:10 pm

So, YOU believe you are trapped – it is a story. Take the meaning out of the story and who is trapped in what?
In the pure knowing there is no one trapped. Just SEE that and have a good laugh.
Posted by marian dhara on 08.06.09 8:03 pm

The experience to be, the experiencING of being here now, â€œamâ€, is too large to fit the mind (to express it somehow â€“as Gilbert points out, all things are One Thing or No Thing), so weâ€™re always experiencing One â€œblock of experienceâ€ (which includes everything here now: body sensations, emotions, thoughts, sense perceptionsâ€¦).
The mind (if thereâ€™s one) is a tool of division and analysis. Mind will take whatever â€œIâ€ is experiencing and will make a list of whatâ€™s in it. It will separate, analyze, categorize and file. Mind canâ€™t go a level â€œupâ€; it can only continue to drill down. So it says â€œI see a treeâ€, and yet, is that true? Is it really your experience, that â€œyou see a treeâ€? No, your immediate experience is much larger yet simpler than â€œI see a treeâ€ â€“itâ€™s one block, to put it somehow, of which your mind and body are â€œpart ofâ€ or â€œobjects inâ€. So the experience you refer to when you say â€œI see a treeâ€ is NOT equal to â€œIâ€ (personal doer of) + â€œseeâ€ (action of optically perceiving) + â€œaâ€ (1) + â€œtreeâ€ (woody perennial plant having a single usually elongate main stem generally with few or no branches on its lower part).
Saying â€œI see a treeâ€ is great because I can know what you mean, but it leaves out 99% of your experiencing. Mind can in fact give you tons of information on â€œIâ€, on the sense of sight, on numbers, and on trees. But it still wonâ€™t be able to show you the one block, the globabity, of your experiencing, and that includes all that is present here now.

Investigate your (â€œIâ€s) direct, immediate experiencing (immediate knowing): see what is present, where or in what it is present (conscious space), as what it is present (experiencING). See if thereâ€™s room â€œthereâ€ for an â€œIâ€ (separate, with borders, with a center?) to whom it is happening, or whether â€œIâ€ (whatever appears as thoughts, emotions, sensations, perceptions) are just a bunch of more objects also present within that one block of experiencing. See if the space (No Thing) is ever touched by the things presently appearing in it.

This is why it is appears to be personal (as â€œIâ€s experience â€“thank goodness, imagine living in numbness!) and yet it can never be. But yes, you have to investigate and see for yourself.
That-which-being-is is bringing all these objects into the experiencing of â€œIâ€, but it knows of no â€œIâ€ because itâ€™s never touched by any of those things. â€œIâ€ (body, mind, story) is being been just like everything else. That-which-being-is is being all these appearances, including â€œIâ€. The thought â€œIâ€™m tired of living in isolationâ€ is just an object that is being been in this space of experiencing. The thought â€œI see this and know Iâ€™m not separateâ€ is another object that is being been in this space. But neither of them touch the space itself (No Thing). So relaxâ€¦ That-which-being-is (No Thing) doesnâ€™t know any thing, although all things are being been by it. â€œIâ€ canâ€™t know No Thing because â€œIâ€ is a thing (bunch of things) that is being been by that-which-being-is. Thatâ€™s the paradox, and as Gilbert was saying the other day, once you see it, itâ€™s really funny and you just laugh.
Posted by gilbert on 08.06.09 11:08 pm

You ARE no thing. It is the No Thing that is SEEING-KNOWING.
The ‘I’ is only a word – and a word cannot SEE.
The revelation is that what I am is not a thing.
What I am is Infinite BEING.
No one ever gets this.
Everyone IS THAT.
Whether ‘they’ know it or not does not make a scrap of difference.
No Thing is undifferentiated.
One Presence – One Knowing Presence.

As a seeming separate individual, the last traces of mind dissolve as the sense of wonder fades into empty naked cognition.
This is our natural state, already present and clear of all obstructions. This immaculate, clear, empty space-like awareness is the most obvious ‘quality’ to existence and yet it appears to be non-existent. It is not empty because it is full. It is not full because it is empty.
It is only the belief in some thoughts appearing that SEEMINGLY divide this singular ‘space of knowing’ – and so confusion appears to come about. For whom?
It is ALL the same, same ESSENCE expressing and appearing as everything. (borrowed some expressions from Bob there only because they are so on the button)
Thoughts cannot SEE or KNOW anything.
Paul covers some of these points very well in this program.

P.S. This ‘Being Been’ is not a good way to put it, in my estimations. ‘Being’ is present tense and ‘been’ is past tense in the normal use of the word.
Posted by marian dhara on 08.07.09 1:04 am

You think â€œbeing beenâ€ doesnâ€™t workâ€¦ then leave it out. It doesnâ€™t matter, itâ€™s just another way to indicate that being is not authored by, or of, the thing itself (as in being lived, manifested, rising, whateverâ€¦) â€“which is, in a way, what â€œIâ€ tries to do through â€œselfingâ€.

Being brings One Thing into experiencing and thought translates it into the many things that â€œIâ€ apparently experiences (with all the personal interpretations attached).

â€œIâ€ (body, mind, stories) is being been (lived, manifested, is appearing), like everything else, â€œas part ofâ€, or â€œas objects withinâ€ the One Thing that is. It is not apart from it.

So there are no things; there is only the mystery of No Thing being One Thing, appearing as all things (including â€œIâ€).
Posted by Morgan on 08.07.09 5:44 am

Brevity seems useful in discussing this. Too many words makes what we’re talking about seem complicated and confusing.

Bless you Ralph for being honest about suffering. Suffering always seems to be related to the idea that things should be different or shouldn’t be appearing how they are. These ideas seem to be generated by a “me” but they really aren’t. The “me” is also just a thought appearing in present awareness. All thoughts will pass and being will remain. One’s nature is inescapable.

Randall: “There are no â€œthingsâ€. It is the consistent belief in separate, independent â€œthingsâ€ which confuses.”

Well put. Reality is non-dual – ONE. “Things” can be talked about in functional/practical terms but, in truth, all is undivided.
Posted by Ralph on 08.07.09 7:13 am

Awake But Not Perfect

When you are fundamentally awake in the truth of life, you are
substantially free of ego motivations, desires and reactions.

This is not to imply that one who is awake is somehow perfect. At
times, you can react like anyone else, and experience fear and
uncertainty, or feelings like hurt and anger, the difference is that
now you know that you are caught temporarily in the illusion of
separation.

You do not believe in the story that is presenting itself to you.
You know that the past is somehow projecting itself into the present.
You do not identify with emotional reactions. And yet, you take full
responsibility for whatever is arising.

The experience is owned and accepted but not acted upon as if it is
the truth.

~ Leonard Jacobson

P.S. Gilbert, I hope you don’t mind me slipping in this quote.
Posted by Jacob on 08.07.09 7:24 am

wuold anyone like to say something about the body and the me feeling that so closely goes with it thats been beleived in from over in bonnie isle of wight land for 31 years, that naggingly keeps appearing in this space of seeing as so familiar and real, that the passing thoughts and feelings seem to attach to so well, love to you all .Jacob
Posted by Ralph on 08.07.09 7:36 am

Ah! I see….. it’s all thoughts.

I am not my thoughts but it appears that some thoughts are still ‘believed’ in as true(especially the hidden ones).

hmm… now let’s see which ones still have a hold on this so-called ‘me’. One great way to find out is just watch the body and see when it squirms. Then investigate why these particular thoughts make your body squirm.

Have you noticed that there are ‘quite a few’ still hanging around? They show their face every now and then.
Posted by Any Prickles on 08.07.09 7:46 am

“wuold anyone like to say something about the body and the me feeling “-Jacob

This is your so-called own pointer, this ” me feeling “, stronger than words can express. Follow It, It’s the diamond in your pocket. Sat-Guru, Life Itself is calling YOU. The dreamer must awaken … to the dream; “I AM IS the door”. It’s not to be gotten rid off
Posted by gilbert on 08.07.09 9:08 am

The dreamer CANNOT awaken in the dream. That is a dream concept.
Are you asleep?
No. Obviously NOT asleep.
The immediacy of wakefulness (present right NOW) is the SWORD that cuts away all these believed in concepts about the dreamer waking up etc.
Life is not calling YOU – that is a dream.
You ARE life – you are awake.
You ARE reality.
Start with that FACT.
If you start anywhere else it is with a concept and a concept is a transient appearance.
Reality is THAT which NEVER changes.
There is nothing to learn.
What you seek you already ARE.
What ‘creates’ the sense of separation from what you ARE?
A concept – a series of un-investigated concepts.
SO, since you are the intelligence ‘behind’ all activities, investigate these concepts.
They will dissolve by themselves. Leaving you present and aware.
Are you not present and aware right now?
The answer must be: YES.
Alright then – so there is no process necessary – just see and know ‘what is’.
The habit is to hear this or read this and immediately go off in the mind with some excuse as to WHY it is not enough – that resistance is called ‘ME’.
In the ‘appearance’ the ‘guru’ brings you back to the immediacy.
In reality you NEVER left the immediacy BECAUSE the immediacy is all there IS.
Tell your stories of process and how difficult it all is – BUT ‘hear’ your own voice telling these stories. Be conscious of the consciousness.
The rest will take care of itself.
Be what you ARE – “Do not pretend to be what you are NOT – and don’t refuse to be what you ARE” – Quote from Nisargadatta.
Posted by Richard on 08.07.09 9:17 am

In one of these threads Gilbert told of his interview by Charlie on Charlie Hayes’ site. Just got around to listening yesterday and thought it was outstanding. There were also words spoken by Bob included and music by Gilbert.

If it hasn’t already been done, maybe Areti can interview Gilbert on this site.
Editor: Already done – look through the list of programs, there are two called “In the name of your God”.
Posted by suki on 08.07.09 10:25 am

“No way of getting out of the dream, because you are never in it.” As Paul says in this program. In fact it’s the other way round. The dream of living life and all it’s associations are appearing in or on that formless silent witnessing, which never changes. Call it what you like: Tao, God, Awareness or Being. It does not matter, ultimately it is the nameless . That is what you Are.
Posted by Misc on 08.07.09 10:29 am

Am I perception itself?
Editor: Perception is SEEING. Yes, you are the seeing and nothing other than THAT.
Posted by suki on 08.07.09 10:54 am

Misc,
You are the perceiving, which is boundless, undefined pure receptivity. Everything is registering there. It is the background (Impersonal Awareness) to all that appears as manifest.
This includes the appearance of thoughts, feelings, emotions and the perceived reality.
Posted by gilbert on 08.07.09 1:20 pm

Well, part two is just about ready to publish. This stuff is highly accessible so tell your friends about it, if you still have any, after talking to them about non duality. The new program will appear over the weekend for your listening pleasure.
Posted by Ralph on 08.07.09 2:05 pm

No kidding about losing friends when talking about non duality with them. As a matter of fact, I lost my best friend over this, ‘me’.

Looking forward to part two and thanks again Gilbert and Areti for bringing them to our listening pleasure.
Posted by Vlad on 08.07.09 2:29 pm

Gilbert, would flying out there and hanging with you, Bob, Wheeler, and Mark in person help you think?

I’m being serious. Somehow it’s amazingly easy to become immune to this stuff just endlessly reading away on your website. I certainly don’t talk with any family or friends about Advaita — kinda a private thing, I guess.

Coincidentally, I crossed the Golden Gate yesterday afternoon and just didn’t feel drawn to hit up Paul’s meeting. Also wasn’t feeling pulled to Santa Cruz for this evening’s Wheeler show.

Anyway, you seem like a sincere fellow. Hanging in person can only help I’d imagine. Also, no grand illusions/delusions on ‘enlightenment’ just know what doesn’t work.

Peas.
Posted by gilbert on 08.07.09 2:52 pm

You never did a thing. If coming out here happens, it wont be you doing it.
Some do come to the land down under and some of those don’t go back home with any locked in belief in the ‘me’. The seeker is locked into anticipation so if I was to say YES, it will help, then it sets up a new anticipation. If you are moved to come, well and good. If not, well and good. There is nothing to get. No one knows what will bring the recognition of our true nature. Simply stopping the ignoring of our true nature is enough. Yet, it appears some assistance is needed. If you are coming, you better book a flight soon, so it doesn’t cost a small fortune. Same applies to anyone else interested.
Remember it is not ‘Satsang’. We hold meetings. Simple meetings and there is NO ONE claiming to have what you seek. You already have it. Bring it here if you must and it may be revealed in a fresh way.
Posted by Mike in SF on 08.07.09 3:47 pm

Vlad et al,

Feel free to join the UGC group on Facebook. There’s not much activity there but it might be a way for people to network or have more casual discussions. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=132102535246

(Vlad, if you’re ever going down to Wheeler, let me know if you want, I can pitch in for gas. And I go to Paul’s meetings sometimes, we could meet for tea beforehand sometime if you’re up for it.)

Mike
Posted by marian dhara on 08.07.09 10:12 pm

Didn’t know who Leonard Jacobson is, but I like the quote Ralph wrote.
We are human beings… Being, being human… The paradox! ;o)
Posted by mrsnacks on 08.07.09 11:00 pm

Hi you all : Great discussion. I have a simple question . It has been said that all beliefs and concepts are false. So how is that ? The beliefs that 2+2= 4 is false ? The belief that I am awareness is false ? I could understand that false beliefs are false but even beliefs that are true ? Beliefs are pointers to what is real but pointers to non duality aren’t false. I am confused on this so if someone can break this down to me in layman’s terms I would appreciate it. So isn’t belief a thought believed such as God exists ? The atheist will believe the thought that God doesn’t exist. So the Christian will appeal to arguments for the existence of God to prove God’s existence but the atheist will not believe that the arguments held by Christians are valid. So is one wrong and the other right ? Who determines that ?

Another thing I experienced today was hearing that my daughter and her son ( 32 years old ) were sitting outside at a Starbucks and a lady was backing up her car and went over two curbs and crashed into the table they were sitting at and into my grandson and my daughter who with quick reflexes went for the baby and saved his life. The car continued and crashed into the Starbucks and my grandson was injured and rushed to the hospital.
They both could have been killed. But my grandson suffered some cuts and a fractured nose but no internal injuries and my daughter had a back sprain from protecting her son. The middle aged lady had no insurance or license. The policeman who came on the scene showed more attention and compassion to the lady who was driving then my daughter and son. Anyway my point is that anger arose within me against the lady and the policeman . It really bothered me. But I noticed that it was short lived. It lasted about 4-5 minutes and a sensation came of gratitude that they both were okay. The driver was given a ticket only and that made me upset where she almost killed a few others as well. She was an illegal alien and not arrested. I was really mad though.

But with you all does anger and all these negative emotions still arise ? Do we ever overcome these emotions or thoughts and live totally out of who we really are ? Or does it just go back and forth. Thanks
Posted by gilbert on 08.08.09 1:15 am

2+2=4 is not a belief. You KNOW it is true.
2+2=5 is a belief, an erroneous one. No one could convince you that 2+2=5.
In the retelling of the story, try listening to your own voice and see if you can detect the lie.
Posted by Misc on 08.08.09 6:51 am

2+2=4 is only relatively true, in binary something like 01010111011101 could = 4!
Posted by suki on 08.08.09 8:21 am

Actually in binary 01010111011101=5597
4 in binary is 100, 2 in binary is 10. So 10+10 in binary =100 and not 101which is 5 in binary.
Whether you use binary or decimal to come up with 4,does not matter. The value of the sum total does not change.
Posted by mrsnacks on 08.08.09 4:36 pm

Yes Gilbert, I know it is true now. But looking back in first grade class I was taught that 2 2=4. I didn’t know that back then. We all were taught separation back then . I am me and I am a person and separate from my mom or dad etc. Someone could say that is obviously true. We may be one but this is my money and my house and not yours. I am not just talking math here but many other things as well. And later on along with history, science, literature etc other truths were taught. Maybe my math example was a poor one so how about God exists. The Bible is the Word of God. There is a historical Jesus. 9/11 was an event that the U.S. government was involved with. Thanks.
Posted by mrsnacks on 08.08.09 4:46 pm

Thank you all for your input.
Posted by gilbert on 08.09.09 12:21 am

The only reality you are absolutely certain of is the fact of your own being.
Everything you mention are named ‘objects and events in time’.
They all ‘appear’ and they all ‘disappear’.
Science has said that there are no distinct ‘things’ that can be proven to exist.
Even in the most ordinary sense of things, it is quite obvious that everything ‘appears’ in some ‘place’ where seeing is happening.
Since you MUST be ‘that’ which is cognizing everything – and you are sure of so many things, then you should logically, if logic is your forte, you should be able to say what you are. Why not? it should be the MOST solid ‘thing’ for you – much more solid and real that anything else, no?
But are you a distinct ‘thing’ that can be pinpointed?
Your attention can wander all over the body and through the body – but where exactly are YOU? You can take you attention to the moon and back or to a distant galaxy. But WHERE are YOU? What are you?
I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that you cannot find anything with any substance that you can say “This is what I am”. All you can do, is associate with some objective thing and say that you are that. But whatever ‘that’ is, it appears in the cognition, which cannot be located – it is ephemeral, like space.
Since you say “I know that it is true now” where is the need to go back to memory to find something that challenges what you know is true now.
What is true does not change?
Let’s say that you have four oranges. 1,2,3,4. They are simple everyday oranges. They do not have numbers written on them. You can prove that 2+2=4. Let’s say that is a fact.
Which orange of the four oranges is number 2 orange?
If you take away the third one from the left and line up the remaining ones, does number four miraculously turn into number three? Who is counting and do the oranges show any sign of being numbered or counted. It is all happening in the so-called ‘mind’.
Has the orange that you removed actually disappeared completely. No. It is just out of sight.
In this here and NOW everything that appears in the universe in this moment is PRESENT. Just because you cannot perceive it all and name it all does not actually bring about any limitations to ‘what is’.
It is all happening in the so-called ‘mind’. Isn’t that where everything appears to ‘happen’? If there are no distinct objects ‘out there’, then it must be One Thing. Are you included in that One Thing or are you THAT ONE THING?
The ever-changing nature of phenomena does not alter reality. Phenomena is what can be termed as relativity. Relative – related.
But what is it all relative to?
Now, if you cease from relating everything to some ephemeral point in consciousness called the ‘me of memory’ then there is nothing you can say about anything. ALL concepts have been learned in the past. What is happening when we name things? Contemplate this for a moment – maybe you have never done that.
We name things and think we understand what they are. It is not so.
The translations that appear in the mind are fine, if we are talking about getting by in life, being practical. When it comes to the question about who or what you are, those translations are ‘in poverty’ to describe anything truly meaningful. This can be a shock to realize. You have NEVER had an original thought and they are not YOUR thought anyway. They simply appear and disappear, including the idea that they are YOUR thoughts. Where are all the thoughts from yesterday? Vanished. Recalling a thought is actually a fresh thought appearing NOW. A recalled thought is NOT the same thought. Its pattern may be similar but it is actually fresh in this immediacy. Belief is NOT the actual.
You are NOT a concept. All your evidence to support your belief in what you THINK you are is conceptual. Where is the solid evidence?
The Unknown stands before you. You do not know what you are.
In the ignorance of what you are, you choose seemingly to argue about things and yet all your evidence has no foundation whatsoever, apart from some generalizations based on a ‘gentleman’s agreement’ about the meaning of words.
There is NO ANSWER in the mind.
So why do you insist on going there to look for one?
Please don’t misunderstand my words. I am certainly not angry nor am I arguing and neither am I being rude or superior. Such opinions are put forth by those who are offended by words. I am simply pointing out some details that you may have overlooked. I have not overlooked anything because my investigation of what I am was thorough. What is revealed cannot be given to another and it is also not so easy to explain but I do my best, so to speak.
You see separation where none exists – and your mind is in conflict with itself only because you do not investigate what you are.
What could be more interesting than to discover your own true nature?
Posted by gilbert on 08.09.09 1:05 am

You can say “I am aware”.
It is more correct to say “There is awareness here”.
This awareness is ALL INCLUSIVE. There is NO ‘I’ as such. Cognitive researchers have spent thirty years trying to locate the ‘I’. Logic should tell you that if they have had no success – and they have had at their disposal highly sophisticated instruments – then what chance have you got? And yet you say ‘i’ a hundred times a day probably.
What do you truly know about this ‘I’?
This is no game. What is on offer is the re-discovery of your own true nature and the end of ALL psychological suffering. It is no piddling matter by any means. And there is a great deal of resistance that usually ‘shows up’ with direct pointing.
Cocky intellectuals and smart ass ‘non dual types’ are a dime a dozen. Gurus that will keep the seeker bound into endless conceptual bondage to a future time of deliverance are also very common. In the appearance of things, it is a rare thing, it seems, for anyone to truly cease from seeking. There are many pretenders (teachers) but their words fail to do anything but engage the mind in an endless search.
Those who truly get a taste of what is on offer here, they are not put off the scent.
Those who dabble in spirituality for whatever reason, they are put off by the smallest obstacle because they are not genuine. They get easily offended.
For some this is a battle, a struggle against all odds. For others it is as simple as a spontaneous recognition.
I can tell you one thing: Those who are genuinely speaking about this direct ‘message’ are not popular with the masses. If a guru is popular, you can be sure he is peddling bullshit by the barrow load.
Posted by mrsnacks on 08.09.09 2:17 am

Thanks Gilbert: One thing that has helped me is the pointer that I am prior to thoughts and prior to language etc. I sat down a few months ago and just became quiet like a two year old looking out. As a two year old prior to conditioning there is no separation. There is no this or that. No blue or black or him and her. All is one. No separation. That is taught to us later when our parents and teachers start the conditioning process with rights and wrongs and this is an apple and this is an orange and you are you and I am me etc. At the moment of seeing there was peace and an indescribable space. I am being. I am present and seeing. As I observed my 2 1/2 year old grandson looking in a mirror one day, there was no judging on his part. There was just this seeing. His hair was messed up and shirt was out of his pants. He didn’t say as we do ” wow my nose is big and my shirt should be in my pants, and I should comb my hair and be presentable what will people think etc. ” He came to me and gave me a hug with no insecurities or fears whatsoever. I learned a lot just by watching him.

And all thoughts and feelings , sensations etc appear in awareness. But they don’t touch who I am. But at times I grab hold of a thought and attach myself to it and then suffering begins. Thoughts can be so subtle that they can be so sneaky . I have found myself being sad,depressed, or confused. And then the inquiry kicks in like automatic. It can all be traced to a thought or group of thoughts believed. For so long have I identified with my thoughts as who I am. Or my body as well. And to realize that is not who or what I am is Armageddon. The end of the world in Revelation is an event in me. The kingdoms that have been mentioned as falling and being destroyed are the
ideas ,concepts, beliefs that are in me. The passages in the Bible have new meaning now. Not so much of events out in the world but in the world within me. Like you said it falls away after investigation. And how ironic that I never questioned these thoughts to see if they were true or not or if they should be believed.

For so long I believed that God is in heaven and I was separated from Him and I was trying to get through life so I could reach heaven one day hopefully. Life became a hell for me. That led to my seeking years ago. I knew something wasn’t right.
And in the seeking majority of previous beliefs and ideas fell away. So I have not been at this as long as most of you here so I appreciate your patience. And I would suggest to all in being patient and loving to those who seek and do not fully see. With me the seeing is happening slowly. Maybe I should say revealing . It is difficult to put into words what is happening but I have done my best to describe.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.11.09 3:13 am

I agree. I am that. But I am also this too.

I both personalize “my” thoughts and feelings, and…

I depersonalize them (i.e. “not mine”) as well.

This and that.

I resonate, so much, with this quote of N’s:
Posted by Shhh! on 08.11.09 3:15 am

â€œWhen I see that I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see that I am everything, that is love and my life moves between these twoâ€œ.
Posted by gilbert on 08.11.09 10:22 am

(mrsnacks) The description is good and clear. What we call an honest sharing.
What dawns is the fact that SEEING is not gradual. SEEING is for-ever instantaneous, ever fresh. It is the belief in thoughts that appears to gradually fade away.
And it is SEEING that dissolves belief.
A belief cannot SEE.
It is as simple as that.
The resistance to pure seeing-knowing is the ‘Me of memory’.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.11.09 4:27 pm

Just as long as you know that knowing A to be true must require a B to be untrue.

Just like the concept of hot is defined by the concept of cold.

And the concept of right is defined by the concept of wrong.

Knowing A to be true requires a B to be untrue.

A favorite playground of the mind.
Posted by gilbert on 08.11.09 11:55 pm

At what point does hot become cold?
At what point does day become night?
At what point does black become white?
At what point does an appearance arrive?
At what point does an appearance disappear?
At what point does a cat become a dog?
At what point does a word become meaningful?
At what point does a circle start?
At what point does a circle end?
At what point does a concept become reality?
At what point does a belief become the actuality?
Who do you think you are?
Posted by Shhh! on 08.12.09 1:09 am

Becoming is an aspect of time. And time or duration is an aspect of any thing created, material and otherwise.

In time, a thing is defined by what it is not (its complement). And they appear to become.

In no-time (keeping in mind that it’s not a place or space too), there is being, not becoming.

So any question, re. when A becomes B, requires time as its context.

I don’t have a clue when A becomes B, if ever it does.

But I do have a clue when A is B, and that is no-time.

As for who do I think I am, the moment I start to tell you a story about that, I become a story teller in time. A story teller telling my own story.

It’s not my favorite time-based thing to be.
Posted by gilbert on 08.12.09 8:55 am

So, did you ever become a ‘thing’?
To BE – is not a choice.
The mind is time.
The me is mind and so the me is time.
The clear space of seeing-knowing is not divided.
Seeing the truth of that single ‘factor’ is enough.
Once tasted it does not need to be remembered and it cannot be forgotten.
Exceedingly frustrating to hear about, without the clear taste of it (for mind).
You are NOT the mind.

The believed in ‘you’ imprisons itself with its own definitions.

Chisel that in Stone.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.12.09 11:21 am

I am both a thing and no-thing.

Isn’t that just another application of…

“I am this and that”?

Reality and illusion? I am both.

Lost and found? Yep, you guessed it.

Time-bound and time-less? Sure, why not?

And yes, I am also divided and unified too.

To say that I am (fill in the blank) and not its corollary…

is to assert that you are what is inside the circle and not its outside.

Or that you are the circle’s outside and not its inside.

When you are both, however, something wonder-full is revealed:

the circle is no longer there.

Because both the inside and the outside are both one.

One (the inside or the outside) is no longer differentiated from its corollary.
Posted by gilbert on 08.12.09 11:31 am

You are No Thing.
Belief is NOT the actual.
What appears to BE is NOT.
What IS does not appear at all.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.12.09 11:45 am

“No thing”… is a concept. Am I a concept in your eyes?

“Belief is not the actual”… is also a belief.

As is “what appears to be is not”.

As for “what is does not appear at all”… well, it quacks like a belief, so it must be one too.

So am I a set of concepts and beliefs in your eyes?

And is anyone what you believe or conceptualize them to be?
Posted by gilbert on 08.12.09 12:51 pm

CRAP No Thing is NO THING.
Any concept is a ‘thing’ appearing in No Thing.
The actual is not a belief. It may be a belief to YOU but that YOU is a fiction.
There is NO ONE in NO THING.
All ‘you’ have is appearances to play with.
There is NO answer in the mind.
Who is offended by words?
When did you appear?
What is the nature of your true existence?
You do not exist.
There is no duality in Non Duality.

KNOWING is not belief – KNOWING is not a concept.
Awareness is NOT a concept.

Not knowing these simple distinctions is the basis of all ignorance.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.12.09 3:54 pm

“KNOWING is not belief – KNOWING is not a concept. Awareness is NOT a concept.”

When you define knowing and awareness, you are conceptualizing the terms.

ALL words are conceptual, mental constructs.

Every single word is a product of the mind.

Including the ones that you love and embrace the most here.

Every… single…word… is a product of the mind.
Posted by gilbert on 08.12.09 4:49 pm

YES but what the words, I have used, are pointing at, is not a concept.
If the activity of knowing is just a concept, in your terms, then what knows that, or what is it that knows anything at all?
To say it is all concepts is simplistic and erroneous.
It is true, we all use concepts? So what?
It is all we have to use – but what they ‘point’ to cannot be reduced to the limitations of a mere concept.
What your words are apparently pointing at, is simply more words. The never ending display of words and the ‘mind’ you say it is all a product of, is just another concept.
So, keep it simple: Mind is nothing but thoughts, images and memories.
How can you say that this activity of knowing is merely a concept?
Have you missed the point altogether are have you retreated into being offended by mere words?
To be sure, to speak of anything, it is translated into words. But the word is NOT the ‘thing’ being described, no matter how fancy or rudimentary the words are.
As is pointed out many times here, yet few seem to catch the meaning is: You cannot drink the word ‘water’.
Your thirst will never be quenched by the word water – in fact every time you say it, you are losing water vapor in the breath.
If you can point clearly at what you are trying to convey, then some misunderstanding may evaporate.
The “I am right and you are wrong” approach isn’t going to do the trick.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.13.09 2:22 am

gilbert asks, “have you missed the point altogether are have you retreated into being offended by mere words?”

That’s an interesting and familiar device. You only offer up two options, I see.

So you’d like to see me fit into one of the two cubbyholes that you’ve selected, eh?

The cubbyhole of missing the point or the cubbyhole of being offended.

I don’t recall the last time that I was offended by anyone’s words when I pointed out that ALL words are merely symbols and products of the mind.

Why should anyone be offended by anyone’s words when words are viewed that way?

As for missing the point… well, I have no problem with you perceiving that I, or anyone else for that matter, is missing a point of yours.

If I am, I am. And if I’m not, I’m not. It is what it is.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.13.09 2:55 am

Thee is an old adage that many folks like to use because of the implied message that it conveys.

It’s a familiar one to me, too, since I enjoy bathing in zen waters from time to time.

That adage is:

“the finger which points at the moon is not the moon”.

While we probably can agree on what the adage’s popularly-accepted intended meaning is, we may need to be reminded, however, that both the “finger” and the “moon” share a common ancestry

They are both concepts and ideas.

A conceptual finger pointing at a conceptual moon.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.13.09 3:16 am

And speaking of a finger pointing at a moon…

is it pointing with a specific intention in mind (i.e. to facilitate someone else’s “re-cognition” of something)…

or is it pointing without any particular intention?

I ask because intention-driven actions almost always derive their origins from a self-believing-in-its-self.

Whereas intention-less actions almost always receive their source from a self-who-no-longer-believes-in-its-self.

Which is what the concept of wei wu (an interesting concept for you to dip your mental toes in) points its finger towards.
Posted by gilbert on 08.13.09 7:58 am

No Moon – No Finger.
The expressions are not even yours and yet they ‘appear’ to be full of intent and argument.
How amazing to claim so much from having so little. (directed at no one)
Sometimes being a smarty pants is entertaining for apparent ‘others’.
Then it gets to be exceedingly boring. Giving Zen Bitch Slaps isn’t the same as getting one. Some good stuff flying around here at the (non) Cafe.
However…..”intention-less actions almost always receive their source from a self-who-no-longer-believes-in-its-self.” That is an oxymoron.
Gotta get the ‘self’ in there somehow. Ha.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.13.09 11:21 am

Of course they’re filled with an intent or two. All you have to do is ask what that intent may be and I’ll be happy to reveal it to you. It will save you a lot of efforting to unearth it.

My intentions are…

if something appears “obvious” to you, that’s a sure sign that it deserves to be questioned; and,

ditto for anything that appears to be true at the expense of something else not being true.

Ah, heck… you might as well question everything, for that matter.

Particularly if you are inclined to assign some authority to it.

Authoritaive pronouncements are particularly deserving of our questioning.
Posted by gilbert on 08.13.09 10:25 pm

Sure, question everything. Why not? In fact, have you ever considered that it is ALL bullshit – ALL OF IT.
Everything is an appearance and so everything is an appearance and so everything is an appearance, ad infinitum. Where are you SEEING from?
Is there any ‘thing’ there in the seeing that is seeing?
Infinity is so obviously present in the SEEING – yet no concept can ever encompass what that ‘means’.
The ONLY reality that you can be absolutely certain of is the fact of you own being.
Can you negate existence?
Even in an ordinary sense, if you try to fathom such a ‘task’ the mind will be faced with its own true nature, thus bringing it to a silent, empty space-like awareness, without a single concept to cloud the view.
Anyone can pull apart words and contradict any statement with a counter concept.
Such mind games are obviously juvenile, infantile and grandiose, played by the self-professed genius. The legend in his own lunchtime.
It is fun for awhile but lets be honest, who wants to read such prattle?
We promise to entertain and inform, here at the UGC. We don’t promise to turn readers away due to the antics of mentally inept ‘spiritual experts’.
Well, it has been a hard day at the office, so I am done for today. Enjoy the PROGRAMS folks. That is what this is all about. 49 programs. Number 50 will make you sit up straight. Warmest regards – your loving non entity – Gilbert.
Posted by gilbert on 08.13.09 11:54 pm

Basically the mind needs to be understood. Conflicting reference points in the mind bring confusion and dis-ease. Self-calming mantras and self-deluded states of mind can be disturbed quite simply by a few choice words arranged in a suitable order. There is no purpose to life other than finding out what you are – at least that is one way to express ‘it’.
Once you know what you are (are not) nothing can truly take it away – because it isn’t something, it isn’t ‘matter’. So, as long as you take yourself to be ‘matter’ then any ‘other matter’ can alter the arrangement of that ‘matter’ thus bringing a sense of vulnerability, due to the changing pattern of the ‘matter’.
Once the ‘me’ has been truly seen to not have any substance, then the changing nature of phenomena or ‘matter’ is known as the ever unfolding nature of this ‘appearance’ called ‘Life as we know it’. The ‘old ways’ do not work – they are crude, inadequate and full of conflicting beliefs and second hand information. If the slightest disturbance of the mind throws up a smoke screen at the drop of a hat, then how will you ever see clearly?
The mind needs to be understood. You are not the mind. The mind is a useful tool but if it is constantly in conflict with itself, then whatever you are seeking will not be recognized, even if it is right in front of your nose.
These concepts are concepts. Know that.
‘Who’ do you think you are?
It may appear as a very annoying question, one to be avoided at all cost.
‘Who’ is annoyed and ‘who’ wishes to avoid the question?
Posted by Ralph on 08.14.09 1:59 am

Well said Gilbert, but I think you just gave Shhh! more material to work with.

… as it is said ” the belly of the mind is never full”.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.14.09 3:24 am

Was it gilbert’s intent to give me more stuff to work with? I ask because I’m generally averse to assuming anyone’s motivation.

I’ll be happy to work with his stuff, if that is his intention for sharing it.

Otherwise, and if it’s not, I won’t.

There is a comment of his that caused me to spill my first cup of coffee, however. Thankfully, it lost most of its heat by the time I dropped it.

“Basically the mind needs to be understood.”

Understanding is a vehicle of the mind. It’s what the mind does to reaffirm its primacy in our lives. Understand stuff, or give us reason to believe that we do.

So who or what will be doing the understanding of the mind?

If you count on the mind to understand itself, all it will do is strengthen its perceived reality and primacy.

All conceptual understanding of anything… including the mind… is of the mind.

Can you “understand” anything without concepts?

I think you can.

Only I wouldn’t call it understanding.

Understanding is what the mind does.
Posted by gilbert on 08.14.09 8:34 am

Well, there is the error in the last line for all to see.
Understanding is NOT what the mind does. That is a concept, imagination for a false identity, the last frontier, as it were. No one ever steps over that line and then comes back.
Understanding is NOT in the MIND.
Understanding is so far beyond the mind, you cannot imagine anything about it, except by playing with the ‘lego’ pieces in the mind, called words, images and structures ‘we’ call conclusions. No conclusion is water tight. It starts leaking the instant it is formed.
Still, what would I know?
It is all bullshit flying around in the cow paddock.
There is either understanding or there is not.
The only thing that seemingly obscures understanding and that is words, concepts, ideas and the mind structures of misunderstanding. The main filter is called ‘Me’……or ‘Shhhh’.
Have another coffee, make sure it is not too hot, the words may kick it out of your hand.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.14.09 3:37 pm

Interesting.

You pose a laundry list of questions in a single post, and I make an effort to answer almost all of them.

I ask you just one question, and you make no effort to answer it.

What is it about this question of mine…

“So who or what will be doing the understanding of the mind?”…

prompted you to avoid answering it?

I won’t presuppose any intention here, of course.

I’ll just point out that you didn’t, and ask you why.

Care to share?

You asserted that “basically the mind needs to be understood”.

By whom or what?

Who or what needs to understand the mind?

P.S. If you’re tempted to say no one needs to understand the mind, I’ll happily resonate with you response. No one needs to understand the mind. N’est-ce pas?
Posted by gilbert on 08.14.09 11:18 pm

WHO is merely psychological patterns appearing and disappearing. The poverty of the mind insists on a ‘who’ because all it has is ‘identity’ and that identity has NO substance.
From all that has been said already, it should be obvious that there is no ‘who’ to it.
But the mind goes back to square one………because that is where it is stuck.
There is no square one, two or three.
It appears that you are too clever for your own good…..but it is only the appearance of someone….a ‘who’ as you put it.
Do you know who you are?
Who do you THINK you are?
Avoid it or answer it in a thousand ways – it wont amount to anything…..except frustration and even that will disappear.
The mind has the capacity to align itself with intelligence without the confusion of conflicting concepts. Recognition of our true nature is not a discovery of ‘who’…..it is more an absence of ‘who’. But descriptions will never equal the direct and immediate experienc-ING of that absence.
Word just don’t do the trick. Words are endless and mostly biased and dualistic also.
Everything that anyone can say can be torn apart or counter-acted by the opposite.
Games of the mind just keep the seeker seeking an answer and there isn’t one.
So, ‘I’ say to ‘you’ -”If you are so clear on this stuff, then please share some very clear expressions on this – I am sure many will appreciate a non nonsense, non wordy, non mind game of counter concept rigmarole”.
Posted by Shhh! on 08.15.09 2:23 am

You are the one who said â€œbasically the mind needs to be understoodâ€.

I don’t assert that anything needs to be done.

But you are.

You’re asserting that the mind needs to be understood.

Since I don’t assert that anything needs to be done, there is no who or what that needs to do anything.

Believing that the mind needs to be understood places you in a trap.

The trap of requiring an understander to understand the mind.

In zen (my favorite waters to bath in), there is the invitation to do anything and everything without the do-er.

Clean your home, wash your bike, take a shower, pay bills, etc.

Acting without an actor. Or without any concepts of one.

Doing without a do-er is concept free.

Understanding, on the other hand, is a conceptual act.

Which is why understanding the mind necessarily requires the concept of an understander.

Perhaps we differ on what the notion understanding means.

I apperceive it as a concept-laden act. And you a concept-free one.

And therein lies the rub.
Posted by NotClyde on 12.03.09 1:31 pm

No slick stage production here. Just a guy in a tee shirt, in front of a webcam, talking straight out of the void. If you want uncompromising authenticity, this is it.

Urban Guru Cafe

48. Paul Hedderman – In Recovery – Part 1.

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