Urban Guru Cafe
Discovering what you truly are
63. Leo Hartong – Awakening to the Dream
Posted on 11.27.09 4:42PM under Leo Hartong
Author of the popular book and website “Awaken to the Dream”, Leo gives us a rare interview. His book made a splash some years ago and many of you will have a copy no doubt. Few have heard Leo speak and we are pleased that he agreed to the interview. Leo visited this site and liked the way we do things here and he found a ‘Yes’ popping up on the question of ‘interview’ or ‘no interview’…..and so here it is. Also Leo has a good sense of humor and you will naturally warm to his ‘style’.
Visit the Awaken to the Dream website by clicking here.
Music includes: The Small Faces, Patrick Park, Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Crowded House (Australian Band) Van Morrison, Cat Stevens, Bob Dylan, an “I am Sam” soundtrack song, The Beatles, Rick Nelson …..and the Dutch Philharmonic Clog and Windmill Orchestra sat quietly listening.
The UGC is Free to listen to and to share with all your friends. Why not make a small donation to keep this website ‘tickin’ and kickin’.
Posted by gilbert on 11.27.09 4:45 pm
I don’t think Leo ever did an interview in the past, so this is a rare ‘event’ and one that many will enjoy. His website was/is a very popular site for a great number. Although he does not do his newsletter these days, the many newsletters may well be still worth reading.
Warm regards – Gilbert.
Posted by areti on 11.28.09 7:03 pm
If you have any questions for Leo, please post as Leo has said that he would check out the questions and most likely answer them on the site.
Posted by Leo on 11.28.09 8:28 pm
Nice editing Areti. And a great choice of music by Gilbert…..Loved the end too with ‘the garden party’ and Randall made it easy to log in.
Posted by fernando on 11.29.09 12:15 am
Leo Hartong !!
Nice program, Areti and Gilbert…
Leo Hartong is great. I’m ‘fan’ of Leo’s newsletters from years ago.
Posted by mark on 11.29.09 12:29 am
Beautiful. A paradox without a smile can be a nihilistic venture but Leo’s humourous way keeps the mystery light and spacious. Particularly liked the fish metaphor. Thank you so very much Gilbert and Areti for giving us fishes (that still feel the need) so many opportunities to jump out and have another quick look at the water. ‘Have a nice now!’
Posted by Steve on 11.29.09 4:14 am
“First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.” – Donovan
Thank you, Leo.
Posted by Ronna on 11.29.09 6:34 am
Thanks again I am amazed and so happy that you keep producing these podcasts and that they just keep getting better!!! Leo’s pointing left me filled with laughter and simplicity. Thank you Leo for doing this.
Posted by fernando on 11.29.09 10:52 am
Leo,
“Nothing is happening.”
Could you explain that?
Posted by claudia on 11.29.09 11:40 am
Only in imagination, by thinking so, things happen – in an apparent space and time lapse, experienced by an apparent individual. But thoughts have no substance. The moment they are seen, they dissolve. And all that is left is one energy functioning effortlessly, perfectly natural. So natural and so subtle, that the mind can’t grasp it. In fact, the mind rejects it right away, for the notion alone that “nothing is happening” is unbearable. It is really a big joke!
Posted by Cheryl on 11.29.09 1:02 pm
Hey have you ever had Mooji on your program? What an absolutely clear and chill speaker on non duality. Came across him on Papaji site, another clear speaker on non duality.
Posted by fernando on 11.29.09 1:24 pm
Reality has no ‘things’, because every ‘thing’ implies division, separation.
Reality is One. Not divided.
And ‘happening’ implies time. And there is no time.
No things. No time.
Nothing happening.
Posted by gilbert on 11.29.09 1:43 pm
We pick the speakers carefully before we invite them to be interviewed.
They must ‘ring a bell’ of genuine-ness. The Life-Style Guru is not on our menu.
Masses of seekers gathering around the messenger usually means there is a lot of bullshit going on.
My previous glances at his ‘stuff’ have not given me a sense that he is actually the genuine article.
Clever and polished ‘performer’ is what it feels like. Smells like a big ego hiding behind all the right words.
But, if someone hears something that turns them around – good.
So, since you ask we will take another look at Mooji and see how he is coming across more recently.
Posted by gilbert on 11.29.09 3:16 pm
No explanation of ‘nothing is happening’ can ever amount to the clear and open view from the non dual space-like awareness that you are.
Explanations attempt to satisfy the mind and the mind will never be satisfied – it will go on and on dividing that clear and empty space of knowing into a flurry of dualistic notions. That is what it does.
Simply witness the disappearance of thought and …..Observe the absence of a witness.
Posted by Stephen on 11.29.09 4:09 pm
Hi Gilbert,
Thanks for expressing your take on “satsang” teachers and your willingness to consider re-evaluating Mooji. What you said parallels my perception of many “gurus” rounding the circuit today. I saw Mooji about a year ago and had a mixed take on him at that time.
Genuine teachers have one message, whether they teach or not: “One’s essential nature is awareness; unborn, always present, perfect in expression and completely unbound. There is nothing to achieve, nothing to do, nowhere to go, nobody to be.”
Posted by gilbert on 11.29.09 5:01 pm
Yes……and no one hears it……
Anyway – let’s drop this guru crap now and stick to the clean programs presented here.
We don’t want to stick our heads in a hornet’s nest because it just brings up a whole bag of crap and some get quite offended by words about the favorite guru.
Posted by Leo on 11.29.09 8:23 pm
To say ‘Nothing is happening’ is one way of attempting to express the inexpressible. No need to make it into a dogma, but it can be a great koan/mind-stopper. We could also say ‘it all happens by itself’. Speaking as ‘the-mirror-you-are’ nothing happens. Within the dream-game of day to day living ‘reflections’ come and go.
When you pick flowers, or you kill someone in a dream, did something happen or not? Perhaps we will say the dream happened, or within the dream-context something happened, yet nothing happened. It did, yet it did not.
Whatever we say it is dualistic, as the nature of words is to categorize and they always have an opposite. Any attempt to explain or categorize will be like a reflection attempting to grasp the mirror in which it appears. Futile, yet it could be fun (or agonizing) to try.
Posted by Steve on 11.29.09 11:11 pm
There’s somethin’ happening here
What it is ain’t exactly clear
- Stephen Stills
No-thing is happening!
Posted by Jacob on 11.30.09 3:08 am
Gilbert can you expalain a bit more on observe the absence of the wittness, the first part is fine witness the disapearence of thoght, cheers man.
Posted by Cheryl on 11.30.09 5:03 am
Thank goodness there is room for clarification. Yes my non dual friend agrees with your evaluation – Mooji sounds like regular dual spirituality. No offence taken. I’m sticking with UGC and Nisargadatta, both genuine and clear enough.
I seem to be too much in the head with this seeming unmanageable ego! Was thinking ‘surrender’ might be the answer – letting go so to speak of any desire to know. Just be.
Posted by iamiaaimai on 11.30.09 5:23 am
Hi gilbert,
Thought this Randall post could enlighten a bit your personal views…
http://randallfriend.blogspot.com/2009/10/mooji.html
Posted by Wim Hein on 11.30.09 5:45 am
This is where all the mistakes are starting…
It is very simple. There cannot be any different between Ramana Maharshi, Nissargadata, Bob Adamson or some one like Mooji.
All are real and not real. Are these so cold persons like you are saying the genuine?
There is not a person in the world that can say so.
I think we must be very happy with every way that this message is coming to us.
You are doing a great job by doing at with the Urban Guru Café.
But please dont make the mistake by judging.
There are no real persons to play what type of guru or whatever.
All is just happening without us needed to speak about it.
Wim Hein
Posted by gilbert on 11.30.09 7:39 am
Jacob, it is very simple and the words are trimmed down without added complications.
Witness the disappearance of thought.
Observe the absence of a witness.
If I explain it, it is just adding more complexities that may only keep the mind turning. However, you want an explanation so I will give you one. Witness the disappearance of thought. This directive will stop the mind. Thought will cease. The witness is nothing but a descriptive thought arising that ‘I am seeing’.
The actuality is simply ‘seeing is happening’. There is no ‘I’ that sees.
SEEING that simple fact is enough.
It may appear ‘for the mind’ as a small opening…….a glimpse of pure open cognition happening.
It is not a small opening………it is actually the vastness of presence-awareness, which has no size, small or large.
It has no dimensions at all.
The 3 Dimensional world appears in THAT and is THAT.
Everything appears in the SEEING.
The mind believes in a point of view and adds a story of ‘me’ the seer. It is just words appearing.
Thoughts appear and disappear………..yet they have no substance whatsoever.
See that. Know that.
Warm regards – Gilbert.
Posted by Jacob on 11.30.09 8:04 am
thanks G, love Jacob
Posted by Scarfox on 11.30.09 8:10 am
since there is no duality, I wouldn’t even say things appear in the seeing. They are all the seeing, the sound of typing is non-dual so it cannot be apart from awareness, thus there is no object that ever existed! The seen is the seer and the seer the seen= seeing only.
Posted by gilbert on 11.30.09 1:39 pm
It does not matter what you say or don’t say, think or don’t think.
There is no duality in Non Duality.
Silent understanding is silence beyond comprehension for the mind.
The waves, vibrations that flow through this vast silence do not disturb the peace beyond all understanding.
There is no answer in the mind. The mind is time.
‘You’ create imaginary goals of achievement where no goal is necessary.
The restless nature of mind divides itself endlessly and there is no entity in that activity. Knowing that is not knowledge belonging to someone. You are No Thing.
Posted by claudia on 11.30.09 2:41 pm
I asked myself over and over again, what is it that prevents me from seeing? Till it dawned that the question and the one who asks the question are not separate, are one and the same, appearing as two in thought. I mean, I knew this before, and yet, I didn’t, and I will never know who I am.
Posted by billtys on 11.30.09 4:18 pm
What a great podcast. Leo Hartong uses plain speak and is therefore very clear.
His jovial attitude does wonders for accurate pointing!
As usual, Gilbert and Areti have done an excellent job on production and interviewing.
Gold awards for both of them at the 2009 Advaita Awards.
Posted by billtys on 11.30.09 5:32 pm
This morning I arrived at my factory.
I was pacing around and thinking about the week’s work ahead.
So pacing and planning and thinking was just happening all by itself. I did not need to push any buttons to get the pacing, planning and thinking happening…all just on auto pilot.
‘I’ thoughts started to arrive…like “I am a bit short of cotton and wool.” and “I better get that fabric cutter sharpened” etc. I did not need to push any buttons for the thoughts to arrive either. All the thoughts just arrived of their own accord.
All this is just happening…all this is natural functioning.
And that’s all there is…natural functioning.
“It does not matter what you say or don’t say, think or don’t think.”
(Gilbert’s comment above)
This is It! Do the investigation and relax…
Posted by gilbert on 11.30.09 6:27 pm
What about the “I am a few cents short of a quid”? (Old slang for the Australian Pound or Dollar)
And “I had better get my intellect sharpened”?
Just kidding Billy.
Have another look Billy, do any thoughts ever ACTUALLY arrive?
The ‘fabric’ of the universe is like an infinite number of ‘layers’, layers of energy appearing as ‘forms’ – forms within forms.
The basic activity is KNOWING. This knowing is not IN the forms or patterns – not OF the forms or patterns – not a quality belonging to the patterns or form. The body appears in awareness – it is awareness but not as it appears. The expression is manifested out of the Essence, without ever becoming anything other than an appearance. (What happens to all my beliefs if what is being pointed out is true?)
All the patterns appear as all manner of sizes and shapes – ‘things’ appearing to move about, suspended in this basic substance – space-like awareness. The day unfolds as a wondrous display of colors, shapes and ‘events’. Yet where you are seeing from, where the seeing is appearing to happen, nothing is actually happening. The ancient alchemist Hermes (Hermetically sealed comes from his name) says “All is One Thing – One Substance”.
Be what you are and abide in the peace beyond all phenomena. You are the SEEING and nothing ‘other’ than THAT.
This Razors Edge called presence-awareness, never goes blunt.
Posted by billtys on 11.30.09 7:23 pm
“Have another look Billy, do any thoughts ever ACTUALLY arrive?”
Yes…a thought arrived just now! It is “I’m hungry…I am picking up pizza on the way home!”
This is natural functioning.
The body and the thoughts are not separate from this natural functioning.
It is no use me pretending that the thought “does not arrive”. I know what is meant. But my expereince is that thoughts do arrive…they pop into my head…so to speak.
I have done the investigation. The sea appears blue even though the investigation reveals that the sea is clear…but it still appears blue. That will not change.
On investigation it is revealed that “Yet where you are seeing from, where the seeing is appearing to happen, nothing is actually happening. ”
The body and the thoughts are not separate from this natural functioning.
Yet the thoughts still “appear to arrive”…
Posted by gilbert on 11.30.09 10:02 pm
Yes, they APPEAR to arrive. But do they actually arrive and where are they situated?
When something arrives it occupies a space, a unique space that nothing else can occupy.
The train arrives and sit there for all to see and hear. The space contains the train. The space inside the train did not arrive because it was always ‘here’.
Can anything actually occupy space or mind?
Can you grab a thought? With what can you grab it? Another thought?
The mind translates and labels a sensation. Hunger for instance.
The body needs replenishing with food to transform that food into usable energy for the functioning.
It is all pure functioning. You can prepare a meal without having to think all that much about it.
A mouthful of food is far more discernible than a thought, is it not?
There is no issue here with any of this. I am just teasing things out for the fun of it.
Whoever claims to have ‘gotten it’ is fooling themselves.
This site challenges everyone who THINKS that THEY understand.
That is the beauty of this site. And out of that there appears to be a few who recognize their true nature.
At no point is there anyone present who is not the knowing presence.
Realizing that is a wonder of wonders.
Bean shoot or human bean shoot – all is ‘water’ – One Substance.
Three cheers for Leo, another great Dutch Explorer.
Posted by linda on 11.30.09 10:04 pm
Thanks for this interview Leo, emaho!
Posted by Randall Friend on 11.30.09 11:03 pm
This present moment or immediacy contains the entirety of reality – there is nowhere outside of here and now except in mental construct. Here and now is never ever ever moved away from, although the mind seems to wander from past to future quite compulsively. But even that isn’t a problem, because these are only present thoughts, mere patterns, experiences which still cannot appear outside of this present immediacy.
The essence of this present moment or immediacy, is YOU. You are the only reality which can be found, yet it’s not found in any of the seeming appearances, it’s not part of that which comes and goes. That reality, the actual IS-ness of this immediacy is purely and simply the present activity of seeing/knowing. It cannot be captured in the equation of space/time. It cannot be grasped through language. Yet it is the most intimate and obvious fact.
You cannot FIND it by looking FOR it, because to find it means it is “of” the world, objective. You cannot find it because you ARE it. Can you find your Self? Do you ever need to?
When we say “I” or “I AM” we inadvertently create the world in concept, because “I” as some “thing” must have it’s opposite. In imagining that “I” is a “thing” there must be all that is “not-I” – then the “appearance” is taken to be something “out there”, something “I AM NOT’ – something which exists prior to “I” and remains as “I” passes. This is the very root of limitation and isolation, the very idea which creates the sense of lack.
We have simply confused the “I” for a limited and separate being or thing, a PART of the world, limited BY the world. “I” is actually the seeing/knowing itself, and the seeing/knowing is the very essence of what IS.
The world, body and mind are describable, objective, negate-able as appearance. Can you grasp “I”? Can you see “I”? Can you describe “I”? No. Yet can you ever negate it?
Then even the word “I” falls away as unnecessary.
Posted by claudia on 12.01.09 12:50 am
Leo’s analogy of pure consciousness as a mirror is very accurate in that sense. the mirror of consciousness reflects without choice and complete indifference whatever appears, but nothing ever sticks to it.
Posted by nondualitynow on 12.01.09 2:50 am
Thanks for including Leo. He was an early inspiration before meeting John Wheeler and ‘Sailor’ Bob… BTW For those who resonate with the simplicity and compassion of John Wheeler’s expression, a great friend to all, you’ll find several of his newer Podcast audios at:
http://beingisknowing.blogspot.com/
Posted by paul on 12.01.09 3:40 am
all there is is whatever is happening.
My first post!!
Paul.
Posted by Leo on 12.01.09 5:21 am
Hi Gilbert
Your words “Whoever claims to have ‘gotten it’ is fooling themselves.
This site challenges everyone who THINKS that THEY understand.” made me think of a phrase I picked up god knows where:
“Let’s organize a party for enlightened people…
and whoever shows up is automatically disqualified.”
Posted by Joe Cap on 12.01.09 6:39 am
The speakers pointers will leave me speechless be it here, second life, email, books or phone conversations. Yet I still feel that what I am is ‘a limited individual perspective’ which is trapped in this viewpoint.
Thoughts come up and DO NOT just fall away in my experience.
They come up and ‘something’ starts looking at them…then they intensify and there is suffering experienced by this thing that I think I am.
In many cases thoughts come up and are focused on, then the appearance will reflect those worries- in other words ‘what Joe worries about happens’.
Yes, I can see that ‘joe’ has no free will!
Because if I could choose thoughts they would not be thoughts that torture me with scenarios that may or may not happen in appearance.
So there is nothing ‘I’ can do.
I’ll leave it at that because the frustration can ramble on for hundreds of pages…
The MIRROR metaphor that Leo and others use resonates somehow but as soon as I think about it, it becomes conceptual. The mirror reflects objects yet contains nothing.
Paul says “All there is is whatever is happening”- THAT would be a nice place to be.
Thanks,
Joe
PS- don’t give me thumbs down because the ego can’t handle it! HA
Posted by Ronna on 12.01.09 6:53 am
Thanks again Gilbert for vigilantly challenging the concepts, ideas, opinions etc that appear. It’s a dirty job but ‘somebody’ has to do it!!
Posted by Ronna on 12.01.09 6:57 am
Try noticing what that ‘something’ is then see that as another thought, concept, object appearing in what you truly are.
Witness the disappearance of thought
Observe the absence of a witness
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.01.09 8:47 am
Joe, It is good to see you have discovered for yourself that non-dual knowledge doesn’t bring freedom from suffering. The speakers on this site are the best you will find anywhere, and are invaluable to begin with. But as you have discovered it doesn’t matter how may great clear podcasts you listen to, the suffering still continues. The core message is simple:
-You are the knowing Presence that is registering these words and everything else in this current experience.
-You as an assumed separate entity has never happened. There is an appearance of one, but you are that which knows this appearance. And ultimately the appearance is made out of this knowing that you are.
Your email clearly shows what needs to be investigated. you say:
“Yet I still feel that what I am is ‘a limited individual perspective’ which is trapped in this viewpoint.”
Yes there appears to be a story of a limited individual who is trapped in this viewpoint. But is this actually true. you need to check this out for yourself. This based on the belief that what you are (Knowing Presence) is identical to a sensation in the “body” and presently arising thoughts. Have a real good look at this. Look at this experience and see how there are body sensations arising, thoughts arising, sounds arising, visual perceptions arising, and that there is a knowing space which is cognizing all these equally. What is knowing these must be what you are. This knowing is not located anywhere. All the mind can say is that “I don’t know where I am”. But you are still doubtlessly present. Look at this cluster of sensations(body) that you feel you are, try and find which exact point you are located. Just relax and just simply look at this experience. There is no rush, you aren’t going anywhere. You are always right here. Your Knowing Presence never goes anywhere.
Anything the mind says about you is false. Your simple presence is all you need, this is what is being pointed to. So instead of turning to the mind when things don’t feel right or there is frustration arising, turn to the fact that you are here knowing these appearances. This can never be doubted. We
listen to the mind because we think it can tell us something about our identity. It can’t say anything about you because you are not an object, the mind can only know objects.
You are always here illuminating thoughts. John Wheelers pointer “does the sun care if clouds appear?, is the sun affected?” is an excellent pointer. You are just like the sun(awareness) illuminating the clouds(thoughts), but you are totally untouched by them, even now! Check this out for yourself. Really question these thoughts that are causing the suffering. The suffering is just a pointer to show you that
you need to investigate the erroneous belief that is causing it. Love Ric
Posted by anatta on 12.01.09 9:27 am
Joe, the main instigator in thoughts seeming torturous is another thought that proposes that they should be different than they are – the self thought. When it is realized that one is not thought, it really doesn’t matter what comes up. And, looking from this non-perspective, thoughts will quickly arise and fade without any personal involvement. It seems that you are confusing your self with a thought image. When all thoughts are absent, aren’t YOU still present?
Posted by claudia on 12.01.09 2:50 pm
No struggle, pretension, envy, pride, eagerness, tantrum and daddy-give-me-a-lollipop-please-and-say-I-am-a-good-girl is alien to me. The fact is that I don’t want to wake up from the dream nor to the dream or however you want to put it. And, even if I wanted, I couldn’t. Because “I” is part of the dream. But where does this “I” appear, other than in thought? Thoughts are observable. There is a presence that knows thought AND the absence of thoughts. You are that presence awarness. Thought appears like noise. In the absence of thoughts there is a silence in which the cosmic symphony is played out with no beginning and no end. Get lost in it and understanding will dawn.
P.S. And hey, don’t take it for granted, I am saying this to myself.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.01.09 5:28 pm
Even the I AM is not what you are, wonder what this Nisargadatta pointer means? Isn’t the I AM presence?
Posted by anatta on 12.01.09 5:57 pm
I think he means the concept “I AM” – it is so before it is verbalized.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.01.09 8:12 pm
So glad to come across the Urban Guru Cafe website, and it’s straight hitting dialogue!
I’ve read so much crap over the years regarding spirituality, and finally a group of people stating the truth.
Posted by Richard on 12.01.09 9:36 pm
Good show. Thanks to all involved.
In Leo’s book he tells of a student who asked Atmananda, “When will I get it?”
To which Atmananda replied, “When the when ends”.
Posted by gilbert on 12.01.09 10:04 pm
As Bob points out: That sense of presence expresses itself through the mind as the thought ‘I am’.
We can also add that what gets added onto that ‘I am’…..is ‘I am such and such, I was born in the year….blah blah’…etc.
The story of me is not what you are.
The mind is time.
That sense of presence is not ‘of the mind’.
Knowing what you are is innately present, prior to the expression, whatever the expression is.
There is no answer in the mind. Full Stop.
Posted by Randall Friend on 12.01.09 11:01 pm
Mike,
When you say “I AM”, it is a confirmation of your being, a confirmation that you exist. I Am. It’s a statement of being. And this “I AM” is not doubt-able – to even say “I am not” requires your beingness, your presence. Yes?
So “I AM” is an obvious and factual statement – yet what does the mind do with that statement? What can that “I AM” be? To the mind, it can only be an object, a “thing”, a thing among things. Right there is the concept of separation – that’s why Nisargadatta called the “I AM” the seed of duality – the first “thing” which then requires all that is “NOT I-AM” or “not-I”. What is the opposite of “I”? It is the “World”. Right there is the division, the split of subject/object, the inner and outer, the me and you.
The mind can only think in terms of things, objects – so that obviousness of “I AM” is conceptualized as some “thing” – and as some “thing” it must be a “thing-among-things” – it must be a small and limited piece or part of existence, isolated. So duality, the idea of limitation and separation, begins with the incorrect mental translation of this pure and intimate knowledge that “I AM”.
So take a look – how is it that you can say, with certainty, “I AM”? Is it because there are sensations of body or thought? No. You must be THAT which knows these sensations. But THAT which knows the sensations isn’t itself another sensation. THAT which knows the sensations isn’t itself another appearance, because there would need to be another YOU to perceive that knowing, if it were objective, yes? You can say with certainty “I AM” because that presence of awareness is always there – it is the very foundation, the always-here-ness which is SO always-here that you are absolutely certain that you exist. So you can say “I AM” without doubt.
So YOU are ever only subjective, yet obviously there – that “I AM” is actually this present reality of knowing – when the mind isn’t taking that “I AM”-ness as some “thing”, as a thing-among-things, then what are you? Where can you be found? Where can you be located? What is your position in space and time? Where are you seeing FROM, right here and now?
Notice that to answer any of these questions requires “thingness”, requires the concept of YOU-as-some-thing. Notice that this “I AM”-ness is simply THAT which you are looking FROM – as such it can never be objectified, for it is YOU. It can never be placed in space or time. It cannot be limited, because only “things” are limited. You have no attributes at all.
And once this so-called mental mechanism of “thingness” or “duality” is noticed, then the whole damn ball of yarn begins to unwind. To say you are subjective and the world is objective is STILL “thingness” – still YOU as a subjective “thing” (awareness), and the world objective. The mind still is conceptually dividing THIS, right here and now, into a YOU and WORLD, awareness and objects of awareness, yes? To say “mind is doing that” is to split reality down the middle, pulling out a “mind”, pulling out “conceptual thoughts”, pulling out a “thinker”, a “seeker”. And a “seeker” must be some “thing”, living isolated in a world of “things”. So there we go again…
We may try, in other ways, to speak of it, but we find that we can NEVER speak of it without applying thingness in some way – that’s just the nature of language and thought. Reality is never anything but THIS, just THIS, right here and now – it’s never moved away from, never divided, never not here – the “seeing” or “awareness” is never actually divided into “seer” and “seen”. Yet to try to describe it or speak of it or seek it, we necessarily break it up into parts to analyze. The “seeker” or “person” is itself a product of this natural conceptualization. Without that conceptualization, THIS right here and now remains as it is.
So we are left with nothing to speak of, just THIS and nothing else. So just THIS, without the ability to speak of it, seeing that this division or separation is purely mental construct, then THIS right here and now is NONDUAL – not made up of “things”, not-two. Vedanta says “you are THAT” – THAT is ever-undefinable, ever unspeakable, because the instant we speak of THAT, we necessarily break it up, conceptually, into parts. To even speak of THAT, THAT which IS, is to divide it. The instant a thought comes it’s already false – already a division of THAT which can never be divided or separated.
And THAT, nondual reality, is just THIS, right here and now. Can YOU be apart from that? No. “I AM” then is just a direct confirmation of this already-present nonduality.
love
randall
Posted by gilbert on 12.02.09 1:19 am
There is nothing more simple than Non Duality.
You ARE THAT – that Non Dual Space-Like Awareness.
Words will never take you there – they only carry the idea of ‘I’ away from the natural simplicity of naked knowing.
Be simple.
Investigate this ‘me’, this ‘I’ and SEE if it has any substance whatsoever.
There is no use in believing what anyone says about this.
You MUST SEE it for yourself.
Then belief will be vanquished by the Knowing.
Belief is useless.
‘Knowing’ is all that is happening – Be that.
Posted by Sunyata on 12.02.09 4:23 am
The amorphous, unnamable, indescribable THIS, which can’t be known through the senses, becomes “unintuitable” as soon as there is movement, as soon as it is observable, as soon as it is made into an object by the mind. Candid, genuine surrendering, whole hearted acceptance of this, whatever is happening in the relative level, in the relative now, just as it is, is the slowing down of movement into a full stop, which reveals the intuitive recognition of the effortless “harmony” with THIS, with BEING. THIS is prior to any sensation, prior to time and space, prior to movement, prior to the I. THIS is non-conceptual, intuited only, beyond the senses and embarrassingly obvious!
THIS is all there is, the only reality, the NOW, the EVER STILL. Anything out of THIS is movement (objects, form). This comment right now, for instance, can only take place outside of NOW, in thought. Movement resolves itself spontaneously, naturally going back to Rest. Since it has no independent nature and is of the same essence as the Immovable, since it cannot self-exist, it is nothing but Stillness. Therefore nothing really ever happens, since every “movement bubble” inevitably pops back into what it really is: STILLNESS, THIS, NOW.
If THIS is all there is, the movement, the object, the form “I” is THIS! The I has been IT all along, everything has. The I cannot not be THIS. Without the I, how can THIS be known? I is the knowing.
Posted by NotClyde on 12.02.09 4:36 am
Many thanks for Areti’s interview with Leo Hartong. It was truly excellent. Warm, humorous. And piercingly clear.
Posted by Richard on 12.02.09 4:54 am
In reply to what does Nisargadatta mean by, The I Am is not what you are:
The I Am is also called Consciousness or Turya or Brahman. In most schools this is considered to be what you are.
In Nisargadatta’s lineage there is considered to be that which is prior to/beyond the I Am. Therefore his book title “Prior to Consciousness”. That which is the ultimate in Nisargadatta’s lineage is called Turyatita or Parabrahman.
I’m not here debating which of the two schools of thought is correct, or even if either is correct. Just answering why Nisargadatta didn’t consider the I Am as the ultimate You.
Posted by Ronna on 12.02.09 5:05 am
speechless, thoughtless . . . Just THIS
Thanks Randall
Posted by Ronna on 12.02.09 5:16 am
Thanks Gilbert for this clear, simple pointer. It amazes me why ‘anyone’ would continue to try to believe anything they hear or read instead of this simple investigation that must be done and must be done alone, it has to be seen by ‘you’.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.02.09 8:47 am
Is it necessary to go through the investigation, or is simple awareness enough?
Posted by Ronna on 12.02.09 8:56 am
I had to see what the difference was between what comes and goes and what doesn’t. I had to see the difference between thought, ideas, concepts and pure cognition. The only way I could see this was to see it myself by investigating. If I continued to listen to other people’s pointers without KNOWING I was just stuck in more concepts, thoughts etc.
Posted by gilbert on 12.02.09 10:10 am
With respect – it is all concepts.
All of the considerations are merely geometric patterns. Each ‘connecting point’ in the pattern is a concept. When the mind ‘creates’ a pretty pattern, it feels good and an assumption of understanding is imagined.
It is the mind that divides, labels and names ‘things’.
In the space of clear seeing, there is nothing happening and there are no points of reference whatsoever.
All the postulations about this and that, various states of accomplishment and the various degrees of attainment are all postulations of the mind, appearance. These appearances generate more and more reference points for the pretty pattens.
One may feel quite clever about these ‘personal patterns’ that are taken to be some unique understanding.
In the spiritual game, if ‘I can convince you’ about the pretty pattern that ‘I see’ then we have an understanding, so it seems.
Until some differences in your pattern start turning up. Then there is a split. Two ‘schools of thought’ spring into being.
It is all mind stuff.
Seeing is never compromised by what appears, no matter what it is.
Where are you seeing from?
Posted by Ronna on 12.02.09 11:04 am
Well I had to investigate who or what was searching, I had to SEE I was thought like all thoughts, concepts, ideas and I had SEE what was always appearing and disappearing and what wasn’t. I had to do this by myself. I stopping trying to ‘get it’ from reading something, hearing something. Just do this one thing. Gilbert and Randall helped me to see that I had to do this and only this, they are right!
Posted by Richard on 12.02.09 11:40 am
I agree with you Gilbert. Well said. Dividing the indivisible Oneness is quite a joke of the apparent mind.
In answering a question, I was telling how Nisargadatta was a product of his lineage and why he spoke of “Prior to Consciousness”. Of course there is no prior or post but Nisargadatta was a party man and went with the teaching of his guru, Siddharameshwar. Nisargadatta even did veneration practices in front of his deceased guru’s picture. Why? Because his guru told him to.
The teaching was to realize various bodies: the physical body, mental body, etc. and after understanding each one to release them (neti neti).
I’m saying where Nisargadatta was coming from; his day, his culture, his blind acceptance of gurus words. I think he did okay for himself don’t you?
Posted by gilbert on 12.02.09 1:05 pm
I am THAT.
Siddharameshwar is an appearance.
Nisargadatta is an appearance.
Bob Adamson is an appearance.
One Essence expresses and appears AS everything.
I am THAT.
What do I think? The ‘I’ is a thought and it cannot think.
The belief that the ‘I’ can think is delusion and dualistic nonsense.
Realizing that I am THAT is all that this is about.
The majority rules in the appearance.
Who cares?
Once the dream vessel is cracked, it cannot hold ‘water’ any more.
Posted by stephen met on 12.02.09 1:13 pm
Yes to this.
Posted by Randall Friend on 12.02.09 1:17 pm
Mike,
If you take yourself to be a person, a separate entity from the world, a small insignificant and temporary thing-among-things, then the desire to discover Wholeness comes uninvited and is possibly followed by investigation. There is a sense or feeling of lack, of isolation. The news of enlightenment comes and that seems to propel the investigation into reality.
But the investigation doesn’t have to be years of meditation in a cave, hours upon hours of yoga or mantra, traveling hundreds or thousands of miles to sit satsang with some damn guru. The investigation can start and end right in this very instant.
Pause a thought – in that pause, you remain while the patterns of conceptualization end. Something is present and aware – that “something” isn’t another object. That “something” is always here – present and aware, while the content changes.
Any attempt to control or manipulate the content, make thoughts better or more spiritual, etc., is missing what is being pointed out – the simple and obvious, everyday, ordinary awareness is ALWAYS shining, always lighting up all content, always illuminating thought, whatever thought might be coming up with, whatever the body is doing, however the world appears.
That pure and present seeing/knowing doesn’t need to be found because it is your true essence or being. It is simply so obvious that it’s either overlooked in attention on thought, or discarded immediately as too simple.
You want to recognize your true Self? Right here and now? You want the search to end? Then answer: Are you here? Are you aware?
If you answered yes, you’ve recognized your Self. If you answered no, how did you know of the question?
That presence/awareness/being is all there is – it is the nondual reality, and it’s already here. Just stop ignoring it.
Posted by areti on 12.02.09 1:24 pm
Just thought to share a poem that Leo recommended:
The Guest House
This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice.
meet them at the door laughing and invite them in.
Be grateful for whatever comes.
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
– Jelaluddin Rumi,
translation by Coleman Barks
Posted by claudia on 12.02.09 1:43 pm
ah, Rumi – I welcome this fresh breeze
Posted by Scarfox on 12.02.09 4:28 pm
Prior to consciousness could easily mean prior to consciousness as sensations, thoughts, emotions etc… Pure consciousness is prior to that consciousness for better lack of words. But still even although they say it is the concept of I AM that leaves, Nisargadatta would say it is the feeling of I AM. Why would he say watch the I AM, if it was thought? He means watch presence, which is presence. Confusing fellow.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.02.09 4:33 pm
Yes if the investigation is simple seeing of what is then ‘I am’ all for ‘it’. I just meant do I have to ask Who am I? and all that, looking for the ego and questioning and this and that. An actual investigation like detectives does not suit me, so I was wondering if it is necessary or if there is other paths. A detective investigation could fail after all. I take it from what you said this is not necessary, thanks.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.02.09 8:43 pm
Hi Everyone,
This is my first real post, and I guess I would like to recount an experience I had.
A few weeks back, I was watching a movie called ‘Enlightenment – Life The Way It Is’ featuring Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev (his message contained some clear pointers to my surprise, but seemed cultish.
While watching this movie a question arose in me ‘what the hell is being said here, this is all meaningless gibber jabber’, and in that instance my perception changed to ‘feeling’ everything around me, as me, while ‘experiencing’ the normal me within the greater me so to speak.
The only word I could use to describe the experience was ‘clear’, everything was clear. After a few moments that experience moved on and I was the normal ‘me’ again, and I was left knowing that there was absolutely nothing I could do to get back to that state – at the time this was a big bummer!
So now I’m left with visiting this website (which is absolutely superb!) taking in the comments left (which are so well written), and I suppose dissolving over time (or dissolving in the endless moments of the now – but I don’ t really want to get into word play).
The great thing I’ve learnt from this website, is that I had so many wrong ideas about non-duality, and to ‘see’ the thoughts that arise in this ‘me’ are the mind, not the real ‘me’ which is ever present awareness, subtle but always there.
I really should go to one of Sailor Bob’s meetings as I live in Melbourne, but for some reason I just don’t have any pressing questions, but I guess something will come up if I go.
Posted by areti on 12.02.09 10:30 pm
Glad to have you posting zenclouded.
If you live in Melbourne, it is well worth a visit to Bob’s. It’s well worth a visit no matter where you’re from if you have the money and leisure.
Somehow being around him and hearing him talk really helps in the apparent play of things, and of course I say that because you have no questions – but who is the one who has no questions? Just kidding. I know you know all that.
Bob is great to be around and to listen to and the meetings are always lively and participatory. Many in the group say it’s the most entertaining show in town. Bob is so cool and it’s worth it to pop in and say hi.
Bob is the first mentor I ever had in life because he was the first person who spoke with irrefutable authority whist maintaining humility, it didn’t matter what he was saying (I didn’t know why I thought that at the time).
He loves having new people and it makes for a better night because then you hear his whole spiel and there’s nowhere to hide from any belief you are still hanging on to – it’s really in your face and well worth a viewing – my God, especially seeing as you are in Melbourne. Many people that go to Bob’s go because it is so good and not because they still seek and many are just like you – no more questions but still feeling dissatisfied with something not being as it should (which, of course, you know is an illusory mind trap).
Posted by gilbert on 12.02.09 10:53 pm
Yes, and if you don’t go to Bob’s I will come and kick your butt. Just kidding. Watching videos of gurus sucks when you have the opportunity to engage with the Real McCoy – Bob. We may record the event and share it with everyone. Or not. Let us know when you plan to go, so Areti and/or I can attend if possible. Bob’s place is the warehouse store for the UGC ‘coffee beans’ – so strong and potent.
Posted by claudia on 12.03.09 2:17 am
Maybe we could bring him to Lima, Perú? We have really nice food here, and the coffee is good, too…( just kidding, of course)
Posted by Sunyata on 12.03.09 2:22 am
Your grass may be dry for Joe, Paul, Todd or Jose… The Real McCoy is THIS!
Come on, Gilbert, you started out just fine (should have stopped at the first sentence) with your sharp, sarcastic stamp that is soooo lovely!
I know… it won’t help to put honey on your lips now, go ahead, destroy the vestiges of this ego that can only be identified by this slight terror of your razor sharp tongue. Go on, expose it, shred it to pieces!
Zenclouded had a freaking experience for crying out loud! What is so special about that? Am I missing something? Why is this worth recording? Is some future event about to happen to him? Should I sell my car to go see the Real McCoy? (Bless his nonexistent soul, would give my life to meet HIM)
Thanks for talking to me last night at SL, I couldn’t hear well and I was having computer problems. Irony of the destiny… had the Real McCoy to myself and could barely hear…
I know, I know, honey won’t help…
Posted by Ronna on 12.03.09 2:50 am
Leo would you please comment on the difference between gratitude to the person who’s pointer ‘worked’ and ‘guru worship’.
Posted by fernando on 12.03.09 3:14 am
Yeah! Let’s bring Bob (and Gilbert and Areti) to Lima!!
(I’m NOT kidding… ha!)
Well,
What’s the ONLY thing that can trouble you?
Just thoughts! ONLY thoughts!
And thoughts are smoke in the air, absolutely unsubstantial!
Posted by fernando on 12.03.09 4:28 am
ONLY YOU
You don’t have to open… you are openness
You don’t have to let go… you are deep release
You don’t have to love… you are love
You don’t have to become… you are
You don’t have to lose the “me”… it never existed
There is only YOU
Rest in the sweetness that is named compassion
Only YOU
Neither poetic words nor beautiful concepts can describe what YOU are
They are not true
Nothing is true
Just YOU
Just THIS
What is needed?
(Mary McGovern)
Posted by Richard on 12.03.09 5:09 am
Scarfox said Nisargadatta was a confusing fellow. I agree. But how about that Gilbert appearance who in one post says Bob is an appearance and in another advises someone to come see Bob (and they’ll have shows, etc.).
Traditional Advaitins accuse neo-Advaitins of switching “levels” to suit themselves or to avoid questions. That is, they speak in the conventional but switch over to the absolute level (Advaita speak) as it suits their position or to avoid a subject. Of course this statement can be picked apart as can any statement, if one is compelled to jump on it. It’s all good.
In the recent excellent show, Leo speaks quite well of the relative and the absolute. I write in the relative and won’t, as Randall said to avoid, “walk on egg shells” to avoid the Advaita police.
While I’m posting, wanted to compliment Sunyata on his Dec. 2 post. Good stuff. Have you posted in the past elsewhere as Sunyata Mu?
And also to agree with those who tell someone from Melbourne to come see Bob. I traveled half way round the world, a 30 hour trip, to see him. I had debated with myself for 3 years about making the trip, and when I realized it wasn’t necessary for me to do so, I made the trip and stayed for 2 weeks. I’m glad I did.
Posted by Sunyata on 12.03.09 5:50 am
Hey Richard! I am a she. No, I have never posted anything besides these two comments on this page. I am new. I have exchanged a few emails with Randall and one with Leo, that is about it. I am glad I found this place, good stuff going on here!
Posted by Cheryl on 12.03.09 6:30 am
“Between the banks of pain and pleasure the river of life flows. It is only when the mind refuses to flow with life and gets stuck at the banks that it becomes a problem. By flowing with life I mean acceptance – letting come what comes and go what goes. Desire not, fear not, observe the actual as and when it happens, for you are not what happens, you are to whom it happens. Ultimately even the observer you are not. You are the ultimate potentiality of which the all-embracing consciousness is the manifestation and expression.”
Nisargadatta rocks!
Posted by claudia on 12.03.09 7:55 am
Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, “The flag moves.” The other said, “The wind moves.” They argued back and forth but could not agree. Hui-neng, the sixth Patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe.
Posted by gilbert on 12.03.09 8:47 am
ONLY the immediacy is real – the life force that weaves ALL the patterns in the appearance is this immediacy.
Chopping waves of water or waves of light with a sword does nothing.
There is no one that needs to do anything. Teasing out that believed in ‘critter’ is an offering of an opportunity to SEE it for what it is.
I am not an Advaitan or a Nondualist. I find those words to be very very silly words and they are only used by the ignorant. There is no shortage of the ignorant in these spirituality circles.
It is all in the appearance of things.
Every thing appears unto what?
You cannot find your ‘self’ and the world and all the things of the world are appearances in this instant of cognition.
A few words can stop the mind in its tracks – usually the grasping conscious kicks back in with new vigor.
Do not panic.
No harm done.
P.S.
There is no need to harbor grudges Richard. If you were to receive only thumbs up all the time, would that make you happy?
Posted by fernando on 12.03.09 9:01 am
«Awareness isn’t hanging around, getting more aware while your thoughts fool around with trying to figure all this out. You are infinite, eternal, whole, complete and perfect NOW. There is only now. Full stop. And whatever it is you’re looking for, it’s not what you imagine it to be… boxing it in will keep it ever elusive… and paradoxically, boxing it in and trying to figure it all out is just perfect too. You’re doing it. You’ve done it. You’re here, even if “here” is doubts and pain and suffering and financial instability and bereavement. This. Is. It.» (S.F.)
Posted by Richard on 12.03.09 10:16 am
Sorry Sunyata, for being gender insensitive.
Posted by gilbert on 12.03.09 10:48 am
Only the mind divides what is non dual into compartments.
Traditional Advaita and Neo Advaita is a division in the mind.
Those who propagate any belief in any such divisions are simply lost in dualistic notions. There is NO duality in Non Duality.
Why make a distinction? Who cares what Traditional ‘Advaitans’ accuse anyone of?
AND to quote your own words Richard, from an earlier post: “I agree with you Gilbert. Well said. Dividing the indivisible Oneness is quite a joke of the apparent mind.” – Then you start off again in the above post about two schools of thought.
Me thinks Richard just loves to ‘get off’ on all the buzz about distinctions. And any justifications about it only digs the hole, he finds himself in, a little deeper.
Richard, to be blunt and uncompromising – It is fairly obvious that, even though you believe you ‘got it’, you did not truly see through the minds dualistic postures. Otherwise these distinctions would not be put forward as something to consider.
Posted by gilbert on 12.03.09 11:54 am
Jerry of Nonduality Blog says: “The Urban Guru Cafe remains the most creative and nondually cutting edge interview show.”
I say: We have only just begun.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.03.09 12:17 pm
How much clock time does it take, anyone care to answer without saying there is no time?
Posted by zenclouded on 12.03.09 12:21 pm
Thanks for the reply Areti, I will go then!
Posted by areti on 12.03.09 12:57 pm
Scarfox, to say that it takes time for this to happen is to assert the reality of the appearance of this entity that will get it and doesn’t already have it.
In the appearance, some beings hear what is being said the first time they hear the message, others apparently have to hear it again and again over years and years before the message sinks in. And still others never give up the indulgence in imaginings even after they hear it.
But none of this matters in reality for it is all the same essence manifesting regardless. But the believed in entity is not satisfied with this, ever. For the entity it always needs to be some other way.Its sole purpose, it seems, is to be eternally trying to satisfy the next desire, thinking that it has some power to do this. Belief going into its power to alter, modify or correct things is what keeps the thing alive (in thoughts and preoccupations, that is, for it is never real).
Does the entity exist if there is no belief that it does, in a moment of silence without contemplation? Could the entity be just a thought, therefore? And could you be just a thought? And if so, then how is it that there is a knowing that you are even when there is no thought at all?
Posted by Scarfox on 12.03.09 1:09 pm
Well say it is sinking in, yet as I am it feels like the body is fighting it, and all the horrible feelings are coming to light… Will they go away? And arguing still happens, reactions etc… even as I realize that I am just this.
Posted by Randall Friend on 12.03.09 1:16 pm
Reality cannot be anything but THIS, right here, right now. Is that not so? Is that not the most obvious statement? So imagining some special “state” or experience will come is to be spellbound by stories, to be lost in the conceptual maze of spirituality. Finding blue lights and individual, blissed-out enlightened “people” is soap-opera spirituality.
Start with THIS, whatever THIS might be. Whatever is there is enough. It doesn’t have to be spiritual. Thoughts don’t have to stop or be in control. Morality doesn’t have to be tweaked. THIS, right here and now, is what is being pointed out – however it’s taking shape.
What is the direct and persistent reality of this or any moment? The IS-ness of any experience? What is the most common factor, no matter the quality or content of experience?
It is YOU. Your presence. That always-here-ness, that wakefulness, that aliveness. The body and thoughts, which you take yourself to be, is more content. Your presence lights up the thought, illuminates the sensations and perceptions we call “body”. These are all incidental experiences TO YOUR PRESENCE, which IS. It IS – that’s all we can say about it. It IS. You ARE. The first thought that comes to describe THAT is already gone off base – trying to make a “thing” out of it, trying to place it somewhere, trying to personalize it.
That presence is the most fundamental aspect of THIS – it is never changed and never affected by the changing and passing content – thoughts, situations, feelings, etc. That presence of wakefulness is all-pervasive – there is nowhere it is not. Experience doesn’t need to change or become spiritual or special or blissful. Experience is the very evidence of that presence or wakefulness – why? Because any experience, no matter what it is, is dependent on that wakefulness, on that presence, on that IS-ness that YOU ARE…
Just stay with what IS – what IS is YOU. What IS, is Reality. Nothing needs to change. Nothing needs to be found or remembered. You have never once left that wakefulness. It is here right now, as these words are read.
Posted by fernando on 12.03.09 1:41 pm
Where all of this controvertial ‘non-dual’ stuff happens?
Where all of your doubts and resistance to ‘what is’ happens?
In ‘what is’. In what YOU are.
Everything happens in what you are. EVERY thing.
Non Duality = Simplicity Itself.
Posted by NotClyde on 12.03.09 2:14 pm
Beautiful.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.03.09 4:01 pm
What is is presence but there is also the sensations, so in that moment I am that too according to you yes? And so right now I am everything and nothing in particular?
Posted by Randall Friend on 12.03.09 5:17 pm
Mike,
Yes – sensations are not actually apart from presence or wakefulness. How far is that computer screen from awareness? If you give any distance, you are pointing out space, which is objective also. So how far is space from awareness? If you give any distance, you are pointing out more space – so now there must be space between space and awareness. Where is that boundary?
Where does space stop and awareness begin?
You are looking FROM presence, right this moment. How far does that wakefulness go, that aliveness, that presence of awareness? Is that awareness contained? You are looking FROM awareness or presence, yet there is nothing BUT presence. Therefore any object is always zero-distance from awareness – the perception or sensation has NO DISTANCE from awareness – all register equally. As well all changes, all events which have a beginning and ending are only so in relation to awareness, which is the only reality, the changeless, limitless spacewise and timewise.
How can you ever find anything that is not your Self? What is happening right this moment? The feeling of breathing? Thoughts? Hunger? Pain? Do these ever modify awareness?
Does the crashing wave ever become anything but what it IS? It IS water. Water is the IS-ness of wave. The wet-ness of wave is water. The color of wave is water. If you touch the wave, you touch water. The REALITY of wave, is water. As well, Gold can be made into any shape, any ornament. Yet that form-ation never changes Gold. Gold is the IS-ness of that chain, that ring, that watch. The weight of chain is gold. The shine of ring is gold. If you touch the chain, you touch gold. The REALITY of any ornament is GOLD.
YOU are the IS-ness of all experience. If there is an experience, there is YOU. The REALITY of all experience, is YOU.
Posted by Jacob on 12.03.09 7:17 pm
Gilbert great idea to record bobs meeting and put it on the cafe, there priceless those meetings and for a poor wee isle of wight man who cant get the bucks together and any other poor wee lost human on the planet , that would be a classic touch. G if you win the lottery you can buy us a ticket over to Bobs place x
Posted by Leo on 12.03.09 7:45 pm
Hi Ronna
Gratitude may arise like any other emotion but if a pointer really ‘worked’ there will be no ongoing guru worship. Here the roles of guru and disciple both ‘dissolve’ in Oneness.
Posted by gilbert on 12.03.09 11:33 pm
Jacob, as they say “You need to buy a ticket, to win”.
As for Bob’s meetings, there is already one such edited meeting on a recent program on Bob. Some find the accent difficult and we sometimes provide a transcript in order to overcome that difficulty. You can read the transcript as you listen to the program. Areti does the transcripts, bless her cotton socks.
We will probably include some more recordings from Bob’s place in due course. Nothing planned at the moment. The next program due tomorrow evening (my time) will no doubt spur a few comments.
Visits to the site are steadily climbing – latest count is 5865 visits in the last 30 days. If only we sold coffee here, we would be rolling in buckeroonies. Warm regards – Gilbert.
Posted by Ronna on 12.04.09 3:24 am
Hi Leo
Roles dissolving in Oneness, thanks for this clear and precise reply.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.04.09 4:22 am
You guys deserve some buckaroonies, put up an ad or two that you know wont be saying ‘How to reveal the truth of The Secret!’… Haha, Just kidding, but I wouldn’t mind a few ads on coffee or something if it made this site some money. But I guess the philosophy is no ads, but donations. I mean with the amount of hits and all…
Anyway thank you for always answering questions, as well as Randall, Areti, and everyone else on this site.
Posted by fernando on 12.04.09 6:08 am
So, the apparent ‘problem’ is suffering…
Are you suffering? Yes?
So, what?
Can you do any damn thing about it?
NO! You can’t do!… because ‘you’ and ‘suffering’ are ONE. So, give up!
(therapies are… ‘una peste’)
Posted by Cheryl on 12.04.09 6:45 am
What a great thing to know that this is IT. Congrats UGC teachers and gurus alike for saying again and again there is nothing to get and no one to get it. Suffering is all in the mind so to speak and no where in Reality. Reality, what you are, is already THAT, it is absolute, it is perfect right now…just relax and just be…the search has ended! But my goodness why does the mind put up such a fuss about it? Can mind only be described as ‘habit’? Strange that.
Posted by anatta on 12.04.09 7:04 am
There is no “mind” as something apart from oneness – it’s an imaginary “thing” like all other things. Such ideas can only arise in the presence that you are.
Posted by gilbert on 12.04.09 9:15 am
Of course, anyone who just happens to stumble upon this site and reads any one of these comments is bound to think ‘These folk are a bunch of Lunatics’.
(A luna-tick is a very rare insect from the Moon – if you get bitten by one, you go a bit ‘tropo’. A squadron of Luna-ticks make their journey to Earth on Full-Moon-lit nights and have a feast once they arrive)
The mind APPEARS to put up ‘such a fuss’ but lets not give it any credence it does not deserve. It is not the mind that makes a fuss, it is YOU. Belief in the ‘me’ or mind is the problem. When belief is cut aside, then YOU do not make a fuss. YOU make all the fuss simply because of belief in a concept called ‘me’. Nothing will satisfy YOU while that belief in ‘me’ rules the roost. A millionaire is never satisfied – he always wants MORE. No ‘matter’ how it all appears, it all merely ‘appears to be’.
It is………..One Essence express-ing and appear-ing in this immediacy AS everything.
There is only ONE knowing presence and that ONE is YOU.
There is no ‘YOU’ that could possibly be separate from THAT – and the word ‘YOU’, ‘Me’ or indeed any other word at all is just a vibration of energy appearing. This is why we say that there is no answer in the mind.
Everything is made of the same ‘substance’.
That substance is nothing other than emptiness.
That is why you cannot find yourself – how can emptiness be found?
It is everywhere.
I am THAT.
Posted by gilbert on 12.04.09 9:27 am
Yes….it is true. Yet this must be known BEFORE the mind translation happens. We often take on board some of the pointers as ‘new beliefs’ and frankly speaking they turn into new bindings for the mind.
When we truly SEE through the pointers to what they merely point at there may well be a silence, an absence of words altogether. There may be no impulse to speak about it to anyone. It is digested quietly.
Later an impulse to speak may come or not. According to ones capacity for articulating ‘things’ clearly, what is communicated may or may not resonate with the listener or reader. The written word has no ‘tone’ usually, so words on their own can feel quite different from what is originally being expressed. A few words is all that is necessary. The knowing does not need any words and understanding is wordless – silent.
Posted by Sunyata on 12.04.09 10:16 am
You were not insensitive, Richard, you couldn’t have known. Thanks for being so kind.
Posted by Sunyata on 12.04.09 10:20 am
“Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests;
but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.”
Posted by ukale1 on 12.04.09 11:54 am
With all due respect to Mooji, I would like to add that although for the most part his pointing appears to be direct and clear, there is definitely an underlying element of duality that feeds the conceptual sense of self. The message doesn’t hit its mark…somewhere along the line it gets diluted and the conceptual sense of self tends to regain momentum.
People often ask him to change their names (to holy Indian names) during Satsangs, which he sometimes does, at their request. Come on, are you trying to place another conceptual burden on the already burdened concept? How does that help? Instead of helping in severing the conceptual ties, you’re only aiding in strengthening them.
I have been to many of Mooji’s meetings / satsangs and at the time his pointing seemed ‘ultimate’ to me. In one such meeting, the “devotees” urged him to relate to them how the understanding happened to him. Although initially Mooji was somewhat reluctant to talk about it, he finally gave in to the insistent request of the followers in the room. He related his experience to everyone in relatively simple terms (although it had a fairy tale quality about it) and the devotees sat in absolute silence, totally mesmerized, sighing in wonder and secretly waiting for something similar to happen to them! This concluded the meeting. Please note that my intention here is not to malign Mooji, even though it may appear to be so…it’s only to point out how the mind loves this conceptual bondage. But again, if someone is actually hearing ‘it’ being ‘expressed’ through Mooji – then its doing its job
But as I came across this web site along with John Wheeler and Sailor Bob; the difference was unmistakable. Although, the verbiage was very similar, yet there was a DEFINITE difference in the pointing. The pointing expressed through Gilbert, John and Sailor Bob is very, very clear, simple and direct. Sometimes it is so direct that it is difficult to ‘not see’ what is being pointed to. Fortunately, I totally lost interest in Mooji’s satsangs. How it happened, I don’t know. It’s like any other thing…how do you know you when you’re full? Or how do you know when the body feels tired. You just know.
Now, even when I try to go back and watch Mooji’s videos on youtube, I find it hard to go through them; they seem to have a “fairy tale” quality about them. Like I said earlier, the difference in clear pointing is unmistakable. Words seem to fail. It is somehow recognized intuitively.
The clear recognition is already there, it only appears to become clouded with the conceptual person in between. And in my case, this happens off and on spontaneously. The recognition of the absence of the assumed personal entity equates to a sense of peace and a general sense of harmony. On the other hand, the gained momentum of this conceptual person adds to a sense of disharmony right away. It is that simple really but the mind makes it seemingly complex.
Incidentally, John’s recent interviews on Charlie Hayes’ blog are clearer than clear.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.04.09 11:58 am
“All is One Thing – One Substance”.
Be what you are and abide in the peace beyond all phenomena. You are the SEEING and nothing ‘other’ than THAT.
That is potent.
Posted by Randall Friend on 12.04.09 12:39 pm
Stay right with this very moment – no conceptualizations, no labels. Just relax and let THIS be. Don’t try to make anything out of it, don’t try to figure anything out. Just take a look.
Is NOW divided? You ARE – yet what “part” of NOW are you? Notice how immediately the mind rushes in to fill the gap with words, descriptions – it cannot leave the void untouched – that pure mystery is too unsettling. Just let these waves come in and go back out. Return again to NOW.
Is NOW made up of a you and a world? Where is this, actually? Where is the evidence, in present reality, of a separation between you and the world? Where is the dividing line?
What part of NOW are you? Are you only a part? Isn’t that presence of knowing unbound and limitless already? Doesn’t that beingness fill the entirety of what IS?
That already-present here-ness, that “I”-ness, that which you are intimately familiar with already – THAT is the “one essence”, One Substance.
Do you need to seek “I”? No. Only notice that “I” isn’t a “part” separate from the world. “I” IS this nondual reality. NOW is One, and NOW is YOU.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.04.09 1:47 pm
Could one say whatever that is going on when thought is not is you? yet when a thought arises the actual thought is you, just not what the thought is saying??
Posted by Dolphinheart on 12.24.09 12:56 am
In the interview Leo says something along the lines that if he really was the thinker, would he not be always thinking happy thoughts? And if he really was the thinker, would he not know his next thought?
I agree with the logic there, but what about the subconscious? Isn’t it possible that there is a part of us that we’re not aware of which is influencing our thoughts, mostly in a negative way?
Posted by Leo on 12.25.09 10:17 pm
Hi Dolphinheart
Sit back and have a look.
Is there a ‘you’ doing the thinking?
If yes, how do you do it?
Or do thoughts simply appear and disappear in consciousness?
And what does this idea of ‘subconscious’ convey?
Is it not another way of saying “There is no ‘I’ deciding on thoughts.” dressed up in semi scientific garb?
See if ‘you’ can think a different thought from the thought present NOW. Or is there only this present thought and no-one thinking it?
Is the idea of there being ‘someone having this thought’ not just a self arising thought too?
Posted by gretta on 12.29.09 5:01 am
precisely, Love.
ahhh, This ‘ineluctable infrangible clarity’ as Love(ly) ‘leo’
smile
((( Love )))
Posted by JMac on 01.26.11 6:35 am
Not two but one.
Not one but none.
Not none but none and one, nothing and everything.
I only exist through what I understand and I can never understand none and one, nothing and everything for this is beyond understanding, a paradox that understanding is not capable of understanding, the truth that is direct contradiction to the laws of understanding.
I am constructed by what I understand hapened in the past, what I am trying to understand in the present, and my belief that in the end I will achieve completion once I understand everything.
Understanding is a bridge from nowhere to nowhere and only appears to be real and taking us somewhere while we apparently build it and apparently travel its length.
In a sense, this bridge does take us to the truth but only when it collapses beneath our feat and we fall into nothing and everything, the same place we began our construction which ultimately led nowhere.
Ha ha ha.
The joke’s on me…
I AM NOT appearing as I AM.
I AM NOT is what I run from because if I am not than I am not and that’s just impossible for me because me is premised on the fact that I am.
It would be so funny if it wasn’t so sad though it is sad and funny, real and unreal, oh fuck it…
Non duality is killing me.
Hey, has anyone seen my foundation?
Posted by Joel on 04.08.11 12:25 am
What an absolute delight to hear Leo’s clarity and good humor. Thank you Leo, and thank you to Gilbert and Areti for creating this treasure trove of “nothing” that is the Urban Guru Cafe.