Urban Guru Cafe
Discovering what you truly are
64. Gilbert – ‘So Clear – So Obvious’
Posted on 12.04.09 4:00PM under Gilbert Schultz
Interview with Gilbert. An opportunity to re-discover the in-describe-able essence of what you are. Voice and an excellent selection of musical interludes.
Music includes: Pink Floyd, Ten Years After Sting and Annour Brahem. from his new-ish CD is called Barzakh.
The VIEW from ‘the last stepping stone’, on the pathless path, is the same VIEW from ‘the first stepping stone’. This Seeing NOW.
Pointers appear and disappear – what they all point to never appears… and so it never can disappear. Just the same is what you are has never truly appeared or disappeared. Knowing is all that is ‘happening’. Everything appears in the knowing – including the ‘knowing of’, the ‘conscious of’.
You ARE this SEEING-KNOWING-ESSENCE, the knowing of all things, which only ever forms into the transient patterns of ‘a seer’ and ‘the seen‘. The unchanging is what you ARE. This knowing does not need a pattern to associate with and all patterns come and go ‘upon’ the unchanging essence of ‘I am’.
Gilbert’s website. E-book – For a free sample titled “Without a reference point” Click HERE – the sample is from an E-book titled “Who do you think you are?”
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Posted by gilbert on 12.04.09 4:03 pm
Welcome to number 64. Areti did this interview last week after several emails repeated the same request. “Let’s hear Gilbert’s take on this”.
Well, here it is – like it or not. There will be a new program next week.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.04.09 5:09 pm
Brilliant program, the mind stopped numerous times and I finally understand the pointer ‘where are you seeing from?’, I almost knew what you were going to say next. The pauses in the show are good, I think that some of the mini-songs and things from movies need to be changed up a bit though, I keep hearing the same Matrix stuff in each show. That’s just no ones opinion.
Posted by Ronna on 12.04.09 5:52 pm
Speechless wonderment, utter contentment.
Posted by gilbert on 12.04.09 6:13 pm
The pausing of thought is where the ‘recognition’ happens (usually).
I don’t see how anyone could not see what is being pointed out – whether they want to see it is another ‘matter’. Thanks for the comment.
I will deal with the matrix issue. Thanks for pointing it out.
Posted by NotClyde on 12.05.09 2:48 am
It sounds as if you would agree with the statement attributed to Buddha: ‘There is suffering, but no one who suffers.’
Posted by mark on 12.05.09 3:41 am
Thank you to this Gilbert character for a spacious programme.
‘We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.’
T S Eliot Little Gidding (Four Quartets)
Posted by Sunyata on 12.05.09 5:34 am
Oh! What a gift! Thank you Gilbert for this beautiful expression!
The perspicacious and “holy” ego of the seeker, at supersonic speed, agilely tiptoes, shifting between indulgencies. The story gets fueled by either the proclivity to vilify appearances (attempting to “get to” the so sought-after imaginary “state” of awareness) or by taking everything to be truth as it is (using it a justification for the taking on of personal preferences). I like what was said about an appearance being valid as an appearance, just not being the essence.
The body and mind need no relinquishing; they are no mistakes, they are not inseparable from the NOW that we already are. Phenomena need no catalyst, no help in their “resolution.” In seeing from the Essence, there is no entertainment of the body and mind as anything unnatural, foreign, or separate. That can only happen outside of NOW, in time. In Reality, it is non-applicable, of no concern, not a problem to be solved. We are the body and mind also, of course we are, what else can we be? Only there is no attention, no ownership, no possibility of preoccupation with what is the essence and what is an appearance. The fingertip cannot point at itself. NOW is ALL.
I am purposely repeating the obvious and the ululant, despite Gilberts’ continuous emphasis on these being concepts, because I have found it so easy to slip into the circular dispute with thought, with the mind-made separation. I have spent so many years solemnly seeking the absence of thought, “my own absence”. Pointers that are pregnant with the limitlessly, can very much become a feast for the starving mind and can very easily get translated into exercises and practices that in actuality turn out to be nothing but exercises and practices in futility.
I LOVE the clear intent point! The intent of the ONE! These five little words reek of the unutterable! Wonderful post! Awesome stuff! Thank you.
Sorry for writing so much, just one more thing: I guess you can’t please Greeks and Trojans, I love the mini songs and the sound effects, I could never get tired of it!
Posted by Scarfox on 12.05.09 6:43 am
Yeah, not the Matrix specifically, but just in general I’ve heard the same clips numerous times.
Posted by max on 12.05.09 6:56 am
Hello,
Once seen, that what was sought, has been doing the seeking, does the controlling mind immediately subside? Or can there be a transition stage where the habituated mind kicks-in believing it is in control?
Can it take a bit for it to unwind? Or does it leave nothing substantial for the mind to grab onto?
Posted by gilbert on 12.05.09 7:08 am
He who agrees and he who disagrees are truly of the same single essence.
Buddha is the TREE and those who sit peacefully and quietly under the ‘tree’ (losing their hope of becoming the tree), they dissolve into the living essence of the TREE. Even those who cannot be quiet, their very flesh and bones nourish the TREE.
In the Garden there are two trees. One, the Tree of Knowledge where many gather with busy minds hoping to gain freedom from their restless minds through gaining knowledge and unwittingly ignoring their true nature. Under the other tree ordinary beings, devoid of all ambitions, sit in its shade. It is the Tree of Life. Even the molecules of air are quietened in its shady presence.
Posted by claudia on 12.05.09 7:34 am
“So clear, so obvious”: This podcast is like the quintessence of the whole non-duality puzzle! Oneness speaks, and expresses itself as everything – for example as this unnameable gratitude arising…
Posted by gilbert on 12.05.09 7:34 am
It takes forever to unwind – Eternity. The unwinding is the appearing and disappearing phenomena. The mind is time, is thought. It can only grab onto other thoughts and struggle to survive. It never was an independent ‘thing’ and all the ‘drama’ is nothing but the display of all possibilities. I cannot convince anyone of what is being pointed out. SEEING it for yourself is the ONLY proof anyone needs.
There truly is NO becoming. All becoming is appearance of becoming. There is ONLY BEING upon which this appearance of becoming displays itself. The Essence is unchanging presence-awareness.
What is recognized is simple. More subtle than space.
Pure cognition. It cannot be described – and it cannot be negated.
I am THAT.
Posted by max on 12.05.09 7:48 am
Ah! You give me nothing to grab onto…. beautifully said!
Thank you, for your time.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.05.09 8:18 am
There is no now either.
Posted by Joe Cap on 12.05.09 8:22 am
HA – I like some of the redundant sound bites.
My kids are even walking around saying “Yeah strong is good” and “I’ll make a proper pot”.
…and my 10 year old daughter mimics Gilbert singing “What is wrong with right now” but she adds a Willy Nelson twang to it- quite funny.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.05.09 6:32 pm
Sure the thought machine is not real, and pointing is just pointing . . . not the real thing, why do you even look? You are trying to understanding looking as an idea, the looking is looking and the meaning is interpreting, the interpreting is a gift too.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.05.09 6:48 pm
From one unenlightened being to all, every word typed presupposes someone that can understand.
All words were created – and are only an expression of intent, but let’s not dismiss the word, the ‘person’ who types always hopes that the words they use will convey what they intend, the conveyer is trying to convey with one of the most powerful tools they have. Power and intent, trying and being – just play of life.
Posted by gilbert on 12.05.09 11:45 pm
The meaning is not clear in what you say. Who is trying to understand?
The ‘person’ is not doing anything – it is not typing anything and it is not hoping anything – it is all just concepts appearing.
Do you know what your intention is?
It is a valid question.
Are you trying to help the reader?
If these words are taken personally the reaction will cloud the ‘zen’.
Just like your intent…….
“The master is cloud hidden, whereabouts unknown”.
Warm regards – Gilbert.
Posted by gilbert on 12.06.09 12:02 am
There is no need for trying in ‘being’. Trying may appear but it does not alter the ‘being’. Words have no power whatsoever in themselves.
They are letters in groups, sounds or vibrations. What animates them all is what one must re-discover.
There is intelligence being displayed in all phenomena. If one assumes that the believed in ‘person’ has some independent intelligence then there are delusional notions at play. The opportunity is to recognize that what I am is not in any patterns that are appearing.
No description will ever capture the essence of what you truly are.
Intellectualizing it all is not useful.
Meaning and intent are the same.
They do not ‘come from’ the mind. They may appear as ideas and concepts but the ideas and concepts are only expressions of the meaning and intent. There is no answer in the mind on this ‘matter’.
It must be recognized as, what I will call, In-Seeing.
Posted by fernando on 12.06.09 12:44 am
“ONE Seeing – ONE appearance”
There are no ‘things’ anywhere. There are no divisions anywhere.
There is NO duality in Non Duality.
Posted by Sunyata on 12.06.09 1:22 am
When there is In-Seeing, the words spoken are not anyone’s. They unintentionally come out of the mouth like water from the fountain, always fresh and new… When meaning and intent cease, the Supreme Subject speaks. The Intention of the One is all there is.
Posted by claudia on 12.06.09 3:25 am
Words, sounds, thoughts, sights, feelings, tastes, smells, pains – no things – just ever changing patterns, vibrations, electro chemical pulsations which the so called mind translates out of the blue into solid things and events with specific meanings, all related and revolving around an imagined “me”, creating thus the sense of separation… In in-seeing, all solidity dissolves, like melting ice, all referent points vanish. There is no ground to stand on, no things to hold on – there is only this endless falling into bottomless space – and yet YOU, the seeing-knowing, are never ever affected. The fluffiest down can’t touch you.
Posted by Cheryl on 12.06.09 6:27 am
Thank you Gilbert for such a clear message. The immediacy seems to be the clearest pointer. “Everything is resolving itself in the immediacy. Everything happens spontaneously. Every moment is clarity and insight.” Nisargadatta talked alot about how his ‘actions’ where spontaneuos, correct, normal and natural without any or much conscious ‘effort’ on his part – which is what you seem to be talking about. For the sake of a name can we call this ‘pure intelligence’? Awareness of the unknown beyond consciousness? Effortless? And can we say that anything that is mind is relative and limited and perhaps that’s how it can be recognized?
Your bullshit-o-meter is great, it helps me cut through any of the ‘crap’ the mind comes up with. Much appreciated.
Posted by fernando on 12.06.09 6:31 am
Seeing is happening, Knowing is happening, BUT not in ‘time’.
Seeing-Knowing is ‘happening’ in THIS eternal, boundless, limitless, timeless ‘moment’.
Posted by mark on 12.06.09 9:46 am
Bullshit, lotus flower, rape, golden wedding, understanding, confusion, birthday cake, suicide bomber, australian guru, english housewife, flicknife, scalpel, pointers, riddles, is it? It is.
Posted by gilbert on 12.06.09 11:36 am
Yes it is all THAT. Even so, bullshit SEEMS to keep seekers on a treadmill and it SEEMS that many want to get off. Just telling them that it is all okay will not free them. Yes, there is no one in bondage – but seekers don’t understand that.
This is not a word game. It may appear as a very sophisticated mind game, one that surpasses all mind games – but it isn’t a mind game.
No compromise pointing ‘works’ – and there are many, many genuine confirmations to show that it really does work.
There is no ‘product’ to promote, like a method or practice. All those who push methods and practices have not seen through the mind’s tendencies to divide and separate, name and locate. The introduction to your own true nature is simple and uncomplicated. It can ‘happen’ any ‘where’ and at ‘any time’. There is no answer in the mind – so stop looking there for an answer.
Mark, when you perfect your radical ‘philosophical view point’ let us know and we will interview you.
Posted by claudia on 12.06.09 1:27 pm
Zero degrees of separation from the words and their meanings. Without being present and aware, this urbangurucafé could not exist and Gilbert, McCoy and all the non-Australian gurus couldn’t utter a word and no word would be heard.
Posted by gilbert on 12.06.09 2:03 pm
Shots into the emptiness do not find a target. The shot can only return to its sender. When ‘we’ stop shooting ourselves in the foot, there is a peaceful resting as no thing. The wounds may sting for awhile but it all heals by itself – so long as you stop arming yourself with more ammo.
Laughing is good medicine. A smile us almost as good.
Posted by gilbert on 12.06.09 2:03 pm
Shots into the emptiness do not find a target. The shot can only return to its sender. When ‘we’ stop shooting ourselves in the foot, there is a peaceful resting as no thing. The wounds may sting for awhile but it all heals by itself – so long as you stop arming yourself with more ammo.
Laughing is good medicine. A smile is almost as good.
Posted by claudia on 12.06.09 2:23 pm
One last shot into the emptiness (before I die, haha). This guy could be great fun to interview in UBC:
We have removed a link to a video that was here.
Editor: Too crazy for the UGC – not the UBC – thanks anyway.
Posted by anamika on 12.06.09 2:59 pm
Just when one thought it can’t get any better, or clearer,
here you are Gilbert, one without a second, amazing the
shit out of us. No where to hide, exposed in the
immediacy, leaves one speechless.
Man you rock…
Posted by claudia on 12.07.09 12:22 am
Thank you for this, Gilbert, for pulling away the least bit of ground for self indulgence to grow. You are so right about the shots into emptiness that return to the sender. I don’t KNOW what I am talking about. The agony of the “me” can be long and hard. Sorry for being such a drag – and all I can tell myself AGAIN is: be still and SEE.
Posted by fernando on 12.07.09 1:39 am
This Immediacy Is It.
It’s all there is, anyway.
You can’t get in (or away from) This Immediacy.
‘You’ and ‘this immediacy’ are ONE.
‘You’ are dONE !
Posted by anatta on 12.07.09 5:16 am
Everything is happening without any personal effort or involvement. Within this egoless arising appears the idea that a “me” is making it happen. When this “me” is looked for, all that will be found is a bundle of ever-shifting perceptions and thoughts that is artificially bundled together under a name and perhaps accompanied by a thought story. There never was a doer, only the ever-present reality manifesting as all and everything. Even the story of a separate, suffering individual is only the effortless expression of this.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.07.09 5:53 am
shiver me timbers, if everything is awareness should it still be distinguished from objects? Hard to get past that duality, an emotion is awareness, but it is not you at all :S Why should there be distinguishing, and who would do that?
Posted by gilbert on 12.07.09 8:22 am
You can never get past duality with the distinguishing mind. Duality IS distinguishing mind. Discriminating Mind IS dual – this and that.
Non Duality is only THAT.
What you are is already non -dual. It has never been divided.
That is what the program is pointing at.
Impossible to describe.
The ‘art’ is to lead the mind to the edge……and as it imagines the emptiness beyond itself, a recognition happens from beyond mind.
The recognition is that there is no edge and there is no mind.
All these questions about who would do it and why should there be distinguishing are naturally resolved in the clear space-like awareness.
The nature of grasping consciousness is where the problem appears to be. That hook is what drags you back into a sense of being separate – all based on discriminating mind, with its words that appear to divide oneness into duality. It is only an appearance.
See that as it is – for what it is. It is a movement and its origin is stillness.
Posted by fernando on 12.07.09 11:03 am
«This is it, and there’s no pressure to “make something” of it. All there is is this, and it is timeless, and mocks the fear of death, for death is something that happens at the end of a story in time. This is it, and it is scary, and joyful, and full of bereavement and suffering and bliss and uncomfortableness and everything in between. Agony and ecstasy, confusion and ambiguity. All there is is this, and the story seems to unfold, a billion stories, more, more than one for each apparent individual. Yet there is no story, just timeless being. None of it is wrong, and none of it is right, is simply is, in perfect balance. The liberation of this is indescribable. In losing myself, I gain all eternity and infinity. All there is is all there is. What is sought is what it already is. Love it. It is you.»
(Suzanne Foxton)
Posted by anatta on 12.07.09 11:15 am
All divisions are imagined by no one.
Posted by claudia on 12.07.09 12:11 pm
Who is playing all these tricks on the poor little seeker? What does the seeker want, but recognition? Everybody, whether they call temselves seekers or not, wants recognition. IT wants to recognize itself, and so it explodes and bursts into Everybody – each one on its unique way seeking reognition – and be it a thumbs down.
(I know, I know, I can’t leave it, but then I have no jodido choice)
Posted by Scarfox on 12.07.09 2:54 pm
I can see the truth of this even in psychology, I am studying it currently in University and I am seeing a trend. Almost all of the time, the most effective treatment for disorders is cognitive-behavioral therapy. Basically the cognitive part always involves challenging patients thought processes. So for depression the therapist might discover that the person believes the thought ‘ I am unloved’. Then they will go into that together and see if that is really the case, and then challenge. I won’t go into the other aspects or the behavioral aspect, just that my point is that thought is a root cause of suffering it seems. To bad we don’t recognize that thought is not our identity at all in psych!
Posted by claudia on 12.07.09 4:42 pm
When the mind is not entertained and fed anymore, it can be quite a dull experience, like wandering about in a desert with no hope and no help. Nothing is what it used to be, and in the whole vast world there is no refuge from the unbound elements. I see all the people around that don’t question the nature of their assumed entities, the children playing, laughing and crying with such ease, the trees just being trees, the roses being roses, cats and dogs just being cats and dogs – and sometimes a small wish sneakes in, that I had never ever heard a word about nonduality.
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.07.09 8:41 pm
Right now it is your experience that there is only you here. There may be the appearance of “other people”, but even so, in your experience there is only ever one knowingness present. Just like there may be ten objects in a room, but they are all appearing in just one knowing space.
Think back over your whole life; you may have been in a room with your whole family, but it has always been your experience that there really has only ever been you(awareness) there. We conceptualize that there are other “people” that have there own separate awarenesses, but that is actually a total assumption. If you just stick with your actual experience, there is only ever you here now. This “you” that is here right now is what is being pointed to.
Do you see what is meant when it is said that you already are what you seek?
When it is said that you as a separate entity has never actually happened, do you see that is literally the case?
It is often said that “this is it”. What that really means is “you are it now”. Where else could you be?
If this is not clear; next time “you” are interacting with so called “others”, notice how it is your experience that there is actually only ever “you”(awareness) present. Check that this is always your experience.
Are you starting to see how simple this really is?
Posted by mark on 12.07.09 9:24 pm
I know what you mean Claudia, but if it wasnt non-duality, the ‘itch’ would have appeared in another guise. Some minds just appear to be programmed to look inwards. If only, ultimately, to stop!
Posted by areti on 12.07.09 9:50 pm
Claudia, Bob Adamson says that some people are not moved to come to non-duality because their ego sense is happy with a little bit of happiness mixed in with the sad, but for people like us there is likely to be no rest until we let go absolutely. And I agree with Mark that this seeking manifests itself in many guises, including the seeking for enlightenment which is no different to any other belief system if what is being pointed to is missed.
What is being pointed to is beyond belief (I like the double meaning of that). It is beyond belief in that it is nothing that the mind can imagine. I like what Gilbert said in the podcast, ‘There’s nothing from stopping anyone from seeing the reality of what they are except their own imagination’. That’s what all thoughts are, imaginings of what we might be or how the world really is or should be.
I remember some time ago I felt overwhelmed by all this seeking and not finding and all the other shit that was happening in my life at the time and I thought, ‘Stuff it, I am just going to go away somewhere and be by myself and get away from all this stuff’, and then I realized that peace could be got straight away if I just stopped the mind chatter that was telling me that things should be different. You are no doubt lost in mind stories at the moment thinking that you wished you had never heard about non-duality, but just drop the stories and see how nothing can trouble you except your own imagination. Anything you say about non-duality or yourself ‘is automatically false’ (to quote Randall).
Posted by ukale on 12.08.09 12:39 am
Incidentally, John Wheeler’s recent interview on Charlie Hayes’ blog is so astoundlingly clear that it leave no place for “you” to hide. He tears down the mind’s habitual concepts and in built defences of “yeah buts…” with such clarity and directness that the nothingness that ‘you’ are is tasted over and over again…
Posted by claudia on 12.08.09 1:17 am
Thank you all for your kind patience (in lack of a zen master who slaps “me” in the face). I could actually see myself being caught by this stormy night of noisy mindstuff. And I actually know what you are saying here again and again – that has been the trouble, of seemingly not being able anymore to bring thoughts to a full-stop. But it is all just imagination, and as you say it, I can see this now right away.
Posted by Sunyata on 12.08.09 1:35 am
There is no return, Claudia. If there were ears to hear non-duality, IT will seek you! Like Areti, so many times I said “stuff it!” I have even attempted to embrace the “trance,” which curiously enough wasn’t all that bad, but to no avail.
This thing exposes you naked; it merciless strips every layer of the slightest attempt at grasping. This frustration that you feel is already the letting go. It is like having a chronic pain which will inevitably lead to the examination of its cause.
Posted by ukale on 12.08.09 1:51 am
Claudia, it maybe a good idea to first clarify what “you” really are (what is being pointed to all along). Once that is clear (your real nature) then look at all the arising doubts and confusion from that standpoint and see if they truly mean anything.
‘Full stop’ only means to taste yourself in the absence of thought. No more. It is a profound pointer, but when handed over to the mind, it wrecks havoc…like anything else…
Posted by gilbert on 12.08.09 1:58 am
It is simple. All these thoughts about stopping the mind are just more thoughts. The intent to stop thought does not come from the mind.
Be quiet and quietly be a witness of the next thought that appears and witness its disappearance.
It is not a matter of thinking your way through this.
Witness a thought disappearing.
Just stick with it.
Whatever thoughts that arise, just witness them without engaging with them.
There is a spaciousness that appears to be ‘surrounding’ all thoughts. Thought are suspended in space. Yet they are like flickering appearances, like dancing candle flames in the distance. You need not attach yourself to them.
Be aware of the spaciousness in which they all appear. This spaciousness is like the white background surrounding all these words appearing in this text box.
The next thought will disappear.
The spaciousness is empty. It is not a void.
It is living.
Become familiar with this spaciousness.
Everything will unfold naturally in this spaciousness.
KNOWING is not a thought.
Posted by Cheryl on 12.08.09 4:46 am
I am trying every method I can to make the mind stop thinking. I’ve basically settled on just being. Not attaching to anything in particular and as you say Gilbert not going with it. Mostly I just go with the truth that whatever the mind comes up with is false. Memory, imagination, ideas, are of the mind and have no basis in Reality. What I see and come up against is that the mind wants to control everything so that it feels safe. It’s just an old habit of hanging onto the idea of a person that is separate. I know it’s a false idea. That’s all I know for sure right now and it’s enough. It doesn’t mean you need to feel depressed or unhappy about it, quite the opposite. The truth will set you free. It’s worth the small effort. Just remember to relax, don’t struggle, just be. The Truth isn’t going anywhere, it’s always here so why worry.
Posted by anatta on 12.08.09 6:00 am
All of the discontent and suffering is simply thought telling stories. Thought isn’t any sort of problem and isn’t in anyone’s control. The “problem” is that the stories that thought spins are accepted as reality. When thought isn’t seen as reality, it’s recognized as just another appearance within being. Then, whatever arises is what arises and it’s not labeled a problem or called “mine”. This is total, unconditional freedom.
Not one story is needed to see the truth. You are the truth.
Posted by Cheryl on 12.08.09 7:37 am
Believe in the story if you want to. The question is do you want to be a lonely, struggling, separate self or do you want to be what you are in Reality – infinite and indescribeable? One is false and one is true. Stop believing in a separate self and the story of me dies a natural death.
Posted by Jacob on 12.08.09 7:46 am
Ric your touch on the comments pages is greatly appreciated man, no non-dual advaita lingo going on just simple natural laungage doing the business, the classic Kiwi style, from a place where seeking is still happening comments like yours and other similla styles is what these pages are all about, have a beauty , Jake
Posted by gilbert on 12.08.09 8:28 am
All the ‘reasoning’ naturally ‘takes place’ in/on a dualistic framework of belief. The story and thoughts are actually the same. Thoughts don’t spin a story because thoughts don’t have any volition. They ‘appear’ to spin a story.
‘Because’ thoughts and ‘doing’ (action) appear to be separate ‘things’ they ‘appear’ to have ‘a causal link’ (which is simply another thought). The WHOLE ‘appears to be’ an infinite web of ‘causal links’ (multiplicity).
We could say that everything spontaneously ‘sprouts’ from One Source and this ‘sprouting’ is timeless – it is not in the ‘triad’ of past present future. It is only ever this immediacy. The mind is ‘too slow’ to capture this immediacy because it is, itself, time. The immediacy is not ‘in time’. That is baffling for the mind and its attempts of trying to attain something that has been conceptualized as worthy of attaining.
Even a simple expression like the previous sentence suggests duality where no duality actually exists.
Everything ‘suggests’ separation due to the infinite number of impressions within ‘one moment’, one moment of impressions – a seeming multiple ‘number’ of impressions of variety (Phenomena).
Where the SEEING is happening everything REGISTERS as one, IS one and the emptiness remains empty ‘no matter what appears to happen’.
Whatever the mind ‘does’ with the impressions will be according to the ‘conditioning’ which includes culture, language etc.
There is nothing wrong anywhere.
Trying to solve all the differences in mind is useless. Intellectualizing it all is useless (but the intellectual does not want to face that factor).
The mind appears to have ‘issues’ and it appears it must deal with them – yet all along the ONLY WAY out of the ‘messy puzzle’, the only way out of the mind is a full stop.
The audio program ‘deals’ with that ‘factor’ many times in the appearance of time.
Recognition ‘happens’ yet the essence of what you are is never a ‘happening’.
In the SEEING of that there is a wordless understanding which remains un-claimed as being the property of ‘someone’.
Wisdom cuts away ignorance without favor or preferences.
Posted by mark on 12.08.09 10:08 am
Tell me Gilbert, do you believe that the growing interest in non-duality ( or whatever you want to call it ) is a genuine and accelerating evolution of the human entity to become whole and fulfill a potential?
For this character, (me), the opening and accepting of simple but profound truth
appears liberating and at the same time a terrible gift.
There appears the very real sensation (not thought) of bewilderment. Everything is understood, taken in, thought is seen for what it is, but (the b word) what is ‘it’ for? By ‘it’ i suppose i mean the realisation, the knowing oneself to be spacious neutral awareness.
What is its purpose after recognition? As i write that question mark i can already here the answer.. But what the hell. The question is appearing!
Posted by gilbert on 12.08.09 10:42 am
“Tell me Gilbert, do you believe….”
It is not a matter of belief.
There is no time.
Evolution requires time.
Being offended by words requires a believed in entity.
Judgment of ‘another’ requires a sense of separation.
There is no before and no after to this realizing presence (That you are).
To perceive an ‘ego’ requires a belief in an ego that perceives an ego somewhere.
In ignorance ‘we’ point the finger and accuse ‘another’ of the very thing that we are hanging onto.
If you perceive a problem then it is your problem.
In this ‘realm’ of speaking about Non Duality there are many who are easily offended by words and perceived attitudes.
A few select words can raise an angry response if they touch a sore point in the belief system.
Many believe that this is all about spirituality.
What is on offer is a way out – completely out of the belief in being separate. That way out may ‘appear’ to require a ‘giving up’ of all that has been invested in.
Words appear naturally once the language is learned.
We hear of the ‘Power of the written word’. Newspapers profess to deliver the truth about ‘the news’. How often have these newspapers been shown to be not only not true, but to be blatantly false and even manipulative – manipulated by the ‘owner’ of the Newspaper and their shareholders.
There is no corporation behind what is being shared on this website. In fact the moment your see through the facade, there is a natural freedom revealed, known in the instant of revelation, to have always been here, just not noticed. No obligation is hidden in the revelation to be grateful – and there are no requirements to pay any fees to anyone. Gratitude may or may not arise for the ‘apparent one’ who delivered the message. What appeared to be separate is overthrown because ‘the energy of belief’ is removed by the revelation of ‘object-less pure cognition’ (what you truly are).
In any case, it is common that the messenger has already moved on.
It is all appearance.
The Singular Essence has never altered or changed in any way whatsoever.
You will NEVER think your way out of this conundrum called ‘seeking’.
The ONLY WAY is via pure cognition – thoughtless reality.
Posted by Ronna on 12.08.09 11:04 am
So many words, ideas, questions thank-you Gilbert for constantly pointing to pure cognition.
Posted by gilbert on 12.08.09 11:11 am
For some, the closer one gets to ‘the truth’ the more the resistance becomes disturbed. For some this apparent awakening is the most difficult thing in their entire life time.
The essence of it is simplicity itself.
The storm that brews is the storm of the ‘me’.
Being stuck in that realm of suffering is agonizing for the seeker.
By finding your way to the center of the storm…….the ’cause’ is overthrown and everything resolves itself.
No one will believe this and once it is experienced all beliefs are tossed away naturally.
But this information is like a thorn in solar plexus for those who grasp at believed in spirituality.
Posted by mark on 12.08.09 11:15 am
Thank you.
Posted by gilbert on 12.08.09 2:04 pm
I am no stranger to offending ‘seekers’. I get accused quite often of all sorts of stuff. In the first few minutes of this program there is a potential challenge to the believed in spiritual ‘me’ of the listener. One scathing comment response, that did not get through the system, demonstrated that there are still those who completely miss what is being pointed out and that they think that they have a case for complaint.
A thumbs down is bound to appear before I even finish this comment.
If anyone is offended by that first challenge in the program, then it is highly unlikely that they will hear anything else in the program with an ‘open mind’. Once offended, the rest is already being disregarded by the attitude of the listener.
Seekers stumble at the very first obstacle and so they stay seeking ‘until’ some courage rises up to go through all the obstacles.
What is expressed in this program is little more than the essence of what was pointed out to ‘Gilbert’ by Bob Adamson. The ‘pointers’ are similar but the KNOWING that they are expressed from is not some second hand mind library of knowledge. I had no idea what I was going to say before the interview. Areti suggested we do the interview and I agreed. Within minutes it was being recorded.
The information being shared is a ‘hard pill to swallow’ for anyone who is hanging onto some spiritual ideals. So many hang onto preconceived notions about HOW everything should appear to be according to their spiritual beliefs.
it does appear that there are far too many words spoken about something so simple.
When it is said that Everything is THAT, it MEANS everything – without a single microscopic exception.
THAT is all there is – it is ALL THAT.
……..a brief moment is all it takes.
No one knows when or how it will ‘arrive’ – because it only appears to arrive – it only appears to arrive because it is already HERE.
Silence.
Understanding is silent….wordless.
Posted by fernando on 12.09.09 1:44 am
Sixty four program ! I still remember the first…
Congratulations for UGC, Areti and Gilbert, you deserve an ‘Oscar’.
Warm Regards
Posted by anatta on 12.09.09 4:12 am
UGC is a great online advaita library and should nip seeking in the bud for those who take advantage of it.
The end of suffering is the end of a nightmare – nothing real, but the relief that comes with the disillusionment feels real enough.
Posted by Cheryl on 12.09.09 6:01 am
Nisargadatta said it best – ‘Nothing can set you free because you are free.
I studied and practiced Tibetian Buddhism for over ten years. We were taught, among other things, to know and actively refute ‘other’ views. We were taught that to abandon the Guru was a guaranteed trip to the lower realms. We were taught to be fearful of death as motivation to ‘practice’. In my opinion we were being brainwashed. It has taken the last year of seeming time to undo alot of that nonsense. One ex buddhist friend actually called me useless because without faith in my practice I was nothing (in their opinion). All I can say is when I heard that all of it was unnecessary bullshit it hit a chord. What a relief not to have to ‘think’ about endless rebirth!
Sometimes when I post things on this site I cringe a little because I know I may be shot down. But it doesn’t matter because I know it’s just mind stuff kicking up a fuss and that’s not reality.
Nisargadatta also said – ‘Strive without seeking.’ Which means to me that the truth will eventually reveal itself so don’t sweat it.
I appreciate this site for what it provides – pointers to the truth that help me build a bridge…you just don’t make your home on the bridge is all.
Posted by Lee on 12.09.09 7:09 am
Hello ricnz1
What you are describing is known as solipsism.
It’s a comforting view but it’s not nonduality.
Lee
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.09.09 8:29 am
Hello Lee
I don’t know what solipsism means, it sounds like a concept of some sort.Just like Non-duality.
The pointers posted above are just pointing to the nature of your experience which may help dismantle the belief in the existence of a separate entity. Because it is always your experience that you are not a separate entity. The moment the separate entity is seen to be non-existent, your done; and you can discard all non-dual or spiritual concepts.
If you look at your experience right now, you know that you are here, if you look for where you are, you can’t find anything, that’s because you are no-thing. You are this simple knowing presence, which can’t be known as an object, but on direct experience there is nowhere where you are not.
Reality must always be real (ramana), therefore this experience right now is reality, I simply urge you to look at this experience and confirm for yourself non-conceptually what you really are. No concepts are required for this. At some point you have to give up all concepts and just have a look. If this sort of pointing does not resonate with you, discard it and find something that does.
Warmest Regards, Ric
Posted by gilbert on 12.09.09 9:23 am
The experience is not reality………it is a description which includes the dualistic notion of an experienc-er and an ‘event’.
Experienc-ING does not enclose anything – it does not include any fixation…and it does not fragment into time sections………it is uninterrupted presence-awareness. it is ‘vast’ like the space which includes all appearances.
It may appear to be picking on words but it is best to be clear, otherwise the reader hangs onto notions that can otherwise be discarded.
Posted by Lee on 12.09.09 8:30 pm
Thanks for your pointers Ric.
Yes, we are using concepts.
You wrote:
“Think back over your whole life; you may have been in a room with your whole family, but it has always been your experience that there really has only ever been you (awareness) there. We conceptualize that there are other “people” that have there own separate awarenesses, but that is actually a total assumption.”…. “If this is not clear; next time “you” are interacting with so called “others”, notice how it is your experience that there is actually only ever “you” (awareness) present. Check that this is always your experience.”
This points to solipsism (look it up if you haven’t already.)
You are positing that others are ‘so called’, yet you are subtly keeping a ‘you’ in place.
Then you ask us [WHO?] to ‘think back over our lives’.
And you also oxymoronically suggest that “…next time “you” [WHO?] are interacting with so called “others”, notice how it is your experience that…” … “check that this is your experience”.
Are there others that have experience or not?
Best regards,
Lee
Posted by Jacob on 12.09.09 9:17 pm
Hey Ric theres a tripping up over here going on when looking in direct experience the body still gets related to in the seeing. Is it best to just keep dropping the body idea and noticing what else is here? – cheers man – love Jacob
Posted by gilbert on 12.09.09 10:53 pm
Anyone’s words and sentences can be pulled apart and turned into a maze of complex contrary points and sticky contradictions. What is great about this site is the fact that everyone can share their insights freely. This is not about psychology or philosophy.
If you perceive a problem, then it is your problem.
If you perceive an ego somewhere, with what do you measure that ego with?
In pure seeing there are no egos seen and no things perceived.
Words appear and disappear.
The only meaning that they can have is what YOU give them.
Therefore when some clear pointing appears, the ‘meaning’ delivers clear and present awareness to what is being pointed out.
No separation.
Posted by Lee on 12.09.09 11:14 pm
Hi Gilbert
I’m not pulling apart anyones words.
Pointing out to others that there are no others is blatantly oxymoronic (no judgement implied with that word.)
There’s nothing personal in this – and I would hope that this site could handle a bit of probing beneath the usual overused soundbites.
Solipsism is a tricky issue – yet it’s actually what much nonduality is pointing to.
Best regards,
Lee
Posted by gilbert on 12.09.09 11:39 pm
In this immediacy everything is appearing fresh, as if for the first time. The immediacy is not in time. Our language is soaked with ‘time’ inferences. The pure cognition is not ‘of the mind’ – so we cannot really say anything about it except use words and symbols to ‘point’ at it. Being challenged is part and parcel of getting genuinely interested in what is being discussed. Having our beliefs overturned is a gift which often is not all that welcome, so it seems.
Resistance to the pointers is common. The mind throws up all kinds of excuses and says things like ‘I don’t understand’ or ‘I just don’t get it’ or whatever. Or, ‘I understand it intellectually’ is quite common. Yet it has nothing to do with the intellect.
Clever dick intellectuals are exceptionally boring and lose their sense of humor the moment they start to ‘lose ground’.
The ONLY way out of the mind and its conundrum is to BE what you ARE – you are this immediacy and nothing more.
We can toss all the psychological terminology out the window.
When we are 100% genuine, nothing can stand in our way.
If I am not 100% genuine, then surely I will want to know what it is that is not genuine and frankly that which is not genuine is exceptionally obvious – if one truly investigates what it is – it shows itself very quickly. Can I bare to look at it without flinching?
Posted by Lee on 12.10.09 1:05 am
No need to be so touchy Gilbert. Using phrases like ‘clever dick intellectuals’ in order to dissuade conversation is rather limiting.
Yes, it’s true, everything is fresh. In this freshness anything might appear.
To say that ‘others’ are an assumption, is itself an assumption. It is already a metaphysical assertion.
Awareness is not the ‘first-person’ perspective that many assume it is, Awareness is that in which perspectives, ALL perspectives appear. The perspective of the perception of a room in which ‘so called’ others appear IS as much an appearance AS that of the supposed others.
Awareness has no view – it’s that in which ideas of views appear.
Best regards,
Lee
Posted by fernando on 12.10.09 1:23 am
Life is here, always (ALL ways).
Living is ONE, not two.
ONE is one is one is one is one…
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 1:38 am
Isn’t your assumption that you perceive this Gilbert character as being touchy counter to the point you so avidly make about whatever point you imagine that you are making? We are talking about Non Duality – not Solipsism. There are no ‘ism’s’ in Non Duality.
All words are limited and what we are pointing at cannot be described – yet descriptions are happening – conversations are happening and no one is dissuading anyone.
My use of ‘clever dick intellectuals’ is a harmless ‘arrow’ unless it finds a ‘mark’. Looks like someone is taking things personally.
We have no need of a mud slinging competition here. it is all a bit of fun and the bottom line is that there is nothing here to GET.
Recognizing where the seeing is happening is enough – but it will surely rob the believer of all their beliefs. Especially the beliefs about Solipsism. (Smiling)
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 1:38 am
One too many.
Zero.
Posted by Lee on 12.10.09 1:49 am
Hmm.. still touchy then (smiling.)
Well, if there is any point to my posts (and I doubt it), it’s that so much so called nonduality or advaita is just recycled solipsism.
Meanwhile, Awareness is free of all these metaphysical views – being that in which ALL views appear.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.10.09 2:37 am
Not really. For language purposes you could say one awareness, many minds. Solipsism is one mind bogus philosophy that you find interesting in high school, not whats being pointed to here. There are no people, to the mind they are people, to you they are (vibrations). Imagine one huge field of awareness where thoughts are localized to made up bodies with awareness believing in that as separation, then ‘figuring’ it out, and telling awareness itself “Hello, wake up!”.
Posted by Ronna on 12.10.09 4:38 am
There is no ‘me’, there never was a ‘me’ and there will never be a ‘me’ so what’s left?
Posted by claudia on 12.10.09 5:18 am
Your very words betray you:
“Meanwhile – you say – awarness is free of all…”, as if awareness would be some thing (happening) apart from any solipsist bullshit.
The most clever intellectual construct can’t grasp or proof or deny this simple simplicity. There is simply NO WAY that you could ever not BE THIS.
Posted by claudia on 12.10.09 5:19 am
Sorry, this was meant for Lee, haha
Posted by Cheryl on 12.10.09 5:33 am
If you really knew there was no me my guess is you wouldn’t be asking that question. Apparently, and only from what I’ve read and heard, what’s left is absolute freedom, which can be described in many ways, a few are – inexhaustible possibility, pure and calm witness, fearless awareness, perfect silence, desireless clarity, silent watcher, supreme reality. It must be experienced directly,and again from what I’ve heard, is beyond words.
Posted by Ronna on 12.10.09 6:07 am
So do you really know?
Posted by Lee on 12.10.09 6:25 am
Hey Claudia, the full line goes: “Meanwhile, Awareness is free of all these metaphysical views – being that in which ALL views appear.” Meaning; Awareness is not a view amongst others but THAT in which ALL views appear.
Another word for THAT is THIS… it is THIS in which all appears including concepts about ‘no me’, ‘no others’, nonduality, solipsism etc.
I’m no fan of solipsism, it’s clearly a flawed idea – I’m just commenting that much half understood nonduality resembles it.
Best regards,
Lee
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.10.09 6:40 am
Hello Jacob
Since an early age there has been a constant identification with the sensation we conceptually label “the body” as me. But lets take a look.
First I would like to point out the positive fact that there is a knowing presence here, thats registering these words, “bodily” sensations, perceptions and thoughts effortlessly. It is something you cannot deny. You don’t need to search for it, because it is right where you are now. It’s what allows you to say “I am” so confidently. We imagine that this “special” awareness is far away and mystical, but I am assuring you it’s right here, and this is what you are, it’s what you must be. And no matter what the mind says, this is always the case.
There is no need to “drop the body idea”, just to see it as that, an idea. A passing thought that is totally absent in deep sleep. It is a useful conceptual symbol when it comes to relative functioning in world.(relative to the appearance of a body/mind)
But for this investigation(what am I really), lets just look at what our direct experience is showing us. And just leave the concepts that we have learnt aside.(that this sensation equals body etc). If you just look at the raw sensation(of the “body”), it doesn’t actually have any boundaries. You can’t actually find exactly where it is. Just sit with it for a bit, and notice that is also constantly changing slowly. Compare it with say a sound and see that the sensation and the sound are both appearing in the same knowing space. In the same placeless place. Do the same with thought. We assume that thoughts are located in the “head”. If you look at a thought, you actually don’t know where it is. The thought is undoubtably present, but nowhere to be found. To say that you have seen scientific evidence on tv that thought is in the brain is just another thought. We are just looking at your actual experience. Look at your whole experience this way. This sort of looking can really start to shake the false certainties that we have held for a long time. Just relax and enjoy the looking. It can really be a bit of fun.
It’s good to hear that you are resonating with the pointers Jacob. Really just let things unfold. If doubt arises, look straight at it. Use all doubt as a pointer to what is doubtless: the knowing of the doubt. This really starts to undercut the mind. I look forward to hearing from you again. love, ric
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.10.09 6:56 am
Hello Lee
It’s good to see you have a strong interest in non-duality(finding out what you are). Don’t get too hung up on the words and meanings. No matter how perfect the concepts are about non-duality, they are still ultimately false. The word is never the thing. They are all just pointers at best. No one can actually know non-duality as a idea, because to know something, there has to be an assumed entity there who knows it. I remember Nisargadatta saying something brilliant like:
Everything you think you know: That is Not correct.
Everything you don’t know: That is correct.
I know there is a lot of misleading stuff out there, but you will probably find that this site is about the best there is for really exposing all the bullshit ideas about what this is really all about.
Warmest Regards, Ric
Posted by Ronna on 12.10.09 7:11 am
Only applies if there is belief in ‘mind’
Posted by Ronna on 12.10.09 7:16 am
The bait is set and the fish are biting
Posted by claudia on 12.10.09 7:28 am
Lee, the last thing I want is to go into an argumentation about this. But why is it that your words have a screeching “sound” to them? Something tells me that you’re just juggling with logical forms, there is no flesh in them…
Posted by Scarfox on 12.10.09 9:07 am
There is no I in Self. Kidding, anyway how do you help a 7 year old schizophrenic?
Posted by Cheryl on 12.10.09 9:47 am
No Ronna I don’t know – all those descriptions convey beyond the body/mind experience and were from Nisargadatta’s book I Am That – obviously not appealing to the crowd (of three):). How about non-conceptual awareness?
Posted by areti on 12.10.09 10:03 am
Quantum physics is now theorizing that there must be consciousness before there can be an event. Is that not obvious? There cannot be a scientist doing experiments unless there is consciousness. How odd that we should miss this fact and go along with some idea of a body or a mind being what we truly are.
How ridiculous too that, once we hear we are not the body/mind but this consciousness, we then use this believed in body/mind, which appears in consciousness, to look for consciousness.
And then, once we realize that the body/mind can’t see consciousness because it appears in consciousness, we ask ‘Well now what? What am I to do? Funny! Again the body/mind supposes it can do something about something when all the while it is appearing in consciousness or as consciousness – this ‘no-thing’ essence.
What effort need the body/mind make to propel itself? All this time it has been thinking that it has been running the show, in this play of consciousness. It postulates all possible options or so few it becomes stagnant – but all the while all it remains is this consciousness – knowing itself by the play (consciousness knowing all).
‘Now what?’ the character asks, ‘Where to from here?’ Can it ever truly know its intent? Know its next move? Know its next thought? Before any of it arsies in the play of consciousness? Does it matter what plays? As Bob Adamson says, ‘nothing matters’ – there is no matter, only consciousness which is no-thing, no-matter, no object.
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 10:18 am
Fish do not weave nets to catch themselves in.
Why mention Solipsism at all, if you truly KNOW that awareness remains untouched? Do you not see that there is a biased view in the intellect happening there? It is all rather amusing.
A fish caught in a net usually does not get free unless ‘someone’ frees it. Discriminating mind is not the ‘way’ to go. That is all one needs to know.
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 10:28 am
So why make an issue out of it? We are talking about Non Duality not about something that resembles it in your mind. Who cares about Solipsism? We could just as easily say that Non Duality resembles a Green Frog. Most folk have not even heard of Solipsism. It may be interesting to look it up in the dictionary – it will only fuel unnecessary mind stuff.
The directives are given. It is not a matter of giving detailed step by step instructions. It is simple, very simple.
Investigate the ‘me’ and SEE if it truly does have any substance or have a point, some quality that I can say “YES, This is what I am”.
It is NEVER ‘THIS’ – ‘this’ implies a location, a limitation and to say it is THIS is obviously not a clear directive.
It is always and ever THAT. Everything is THAT.
Simple.
It stops the mind.
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 10:33 am
The directives are simple.
When you are 100% genuine you will ACT. It is not a ‘you’ or ‘me’ that will act. The investigation is nothing but Seeing – and Seeing is happening. When the trying stops the open view is clear.
Nothing stands in your way except your own imagination.
Its up to you. There is no ‘you’ so BE what you ARE and stop playing mind games with yourself.
Simple.
Posted by Scarfox on 12.10.09 10:37 am
Define consciousness. Define your terms before you condescend no one! Thank you.
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 11:07 am
Consciousness cannot be defined. Awareness cannot be defined.
Any definition can only be a concept or a series of ideas or concepts.
What is conscious of it all?
What definition does conscious require to complete itself?
None whatsoever.
If you define your limitations, you may well realize that what you truly are is not in the mind.
Thoughtless Reality – or non-conceptual awareness is Perfect just as it is.
The ‘intellect’ always falls short of the ‘intelligence’ that expresses itself as the intellect.
You cannot jump over your own knees.
The mind cannot grasp awareness.
Exhaustion may reveal the fruitless activities of the mind, so long as ‘the story of me’ ceases.
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 11:13 am
Scientists openly tell us that they are constantly trying to come up with ever-more refined concepts to explain their observations.
It is almost always a ‘looking out’ at the world and the attempt to explain it.
In-Seeing is what is necessary. Finding that there is no observer is a radical discovery.
It leaves you with nothing to say.
Scientists have a bias – they must get funding to stay in a job.
Therefore, they must tell a story that can convince their benefactors to continue to fund them.
When a Yoga Teacher realizes that there is no need to perfect awareness (because it is already perfect) he or she may lose the desire to teach unnecessary practices (or not).
Posted by Scarfox on 12.10.09 11:20 am
Very well, but for those who may be new to the site, what is the message being sent. Areti: Consciousness is obvious Gilbert: We can’t tell you what that is. It won’t kill to say it is that which is knowing, that which only is!
Posted by areti on 12.10.09 11:34 am
Scarfox, I am not being condescending to say that ‘consciousness is obvious’ – the fact that you are aware of this comment, or anything other, is proof that consciousness is obvious. Even to say ‘I am not aware’, consciousness is needed. Isn’t that obvious? No-one can deny consciousness, can they? Consciousness is obvious to everyone, is it not? Even if they think they don’t understand what non-duality is pointing to, they can’t deny that they are conscious. That is why I say that consciousness is obvious.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.10.09 12:25 pm
I’ve always wondered what self enquiry was all about, before it seemed just one of those ‘ideas’ I had read about, but since coming to this website and hearing several of the audio clips pointing to this as a method of discovery I thought I would give it a try.
After initial attempts it still didn’t make sense (or ring a bell), but it clicked last night!
You are always aware, aware of thought, aware of touch, aware of being happy, aware of being sad.
This awareness is not of thought, as you don’t have to conceptualise an object to be aware of an object, the mind can’t conceptualise everything you see at the same time, but you can be aware of everything you see at the same time. Thoughts are preventing direct seeing, as the seeing is filtered by thought.
When the mind is quite, and the seeing is being ‘seen’ i.e. you are aware of seeing, then there is nothing more but awareness.
For me it was the thought that came after seeing, that there should be something more that was the ‘problem’ (similar to my interpretation of Tony Parson’s idea that there is no one to become enlightened, just sent me down a path to find a ‘no one’ lol).
Perhaps in direct seeing, you (awareness) are more aware of seeing, energy is not being sucked out into thought processes.
Since awareness is from which thought comes from, it is awareness that is the starting point for self enquiry (instead of thoughts trying to understand awareness), for me priming awareness with a question and letting the question be answered through stillness comes the understanding (this is a little strange I know, because when you are still the question dies, but it’s similar to when you are thinking of an issue before sleeping you wake up with that same issue rolling around in your head).
See what is being seen, looking for an experience to come out of the seeing is just silliness.
Posted by claudia on 12.10.09 12:46 pm
Yes the mind can play the most incredible tricks – till it is seen that there is no such thing as the mind…
Till it is seen that what I thought I was (this kamikaze charcter called claudia) is not acting out of free will, that it is constantly appearing in a new disguise, doing and saying things to my own surprise, regardless the promises and propositions it has solemnely taken just a minute before. I can see and here this character doing and saying things like in a puppet show, animated by invisible strings – it is seen that this ridiculous character is not what I am. “No claim, no fame, no shame”, like Leo Hartong said.
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.10.09 2:58 pm
Hello Zenclouded
There has been some good seeing happening.
“After initial attempts it still didn’t make sense (or ring a bell), but it clicked last night! You are always aware, aware of thought, aware of touch, aware of being happy, aware of being sad”
This is good. This is how simple it is. I remember John Wheeler saying “it’s actually so simple it’s nearly embarrassing to talk about.” Remember it’s not “you” that’s aware, as I am sure you are seeing, you are the awareness!!
“Thoughts are preventing direct seeing, as the seeing is filtered by thought.”
The seeing is never obscured by the thoughts at anytime. The awareness is always “shining in plain view”(john wheeler). You could say that the attention on thoughts can seemingly veil awareness, but even That is not true. John Wheeler uses a good example when he says “From the suns point of view, do the clouds ever obscure the sun? is the sun(awareness) worried if clouds(thoughts) arise?
The idea that thoughts cloud over awareness is simply not true. This simple awareness is always right here, right where you are now. Immediately present. There is no need to try and stop thoughts or still the mind; those are just strategies of the mind and subtly reinforce the notion of a separate entity. Love, Ric
Posted by zenclouded on 12.10.09 5:06 pm
The whole sound bite thing is a great idea, I’ve noticed that most of the songs I really like have an introspective angle (must be hardwired to it, lol), here are just some of my favourites:
Sarah Brightman (original Kansas) – Dust in the Wind (the whole song is great!)
‘I close my eyes, only for a moment, and the moment’s gone
All my dreams, pass before my eyes, a curiosity
Dust in the wind, all they are is dust in the wind.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see’
U2 – Beautiful Day
‘You’re on the road but you’ve got no destination
You’re in the mud, in the maze of her imagination
You love this town even if that doesn’t ring true
You’ve been all over and it’s been all over you’
Snow Patrol – Chasing Cars Lyrics
‘I don’t quite know
How to say
How I feel
Those three words
Are said too much
They’re not enough
If I lay here
If I just lay here
would you lie with me and just forget the world?
Forget what we’re told
Before we get too old
Show me a garden that’s bursting into life’
Pink Floyd – Learning to Fly
‘A soul in tension, that’s learning to fly
Condition grounded but determined to try
Can’t keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earthbound misfit, I’
Grove Amanda – Hands of Time
‘Keep looking through the window pane
just trying to see through the pouring rain
it’s hearing your name, hearing your name
I really never felt quite the same, since I’ve lost what I had to gain
no one to blame, no one to blame’
Oh, and . . . no ones listening but sounds are ringing!
Posted by zenclouded on 12.10.09 5:22 pm
It is simple – once seen so simple!
We try to interpret everything – I just listened to Catherine Hardings interview – of course we don’t have a head using our direct experience – we look in the mirror and our ‘head’ picture is outside of us – though it’s just an idea that the reflection is our head too.
I did meditation for years, and was useless at it, then I just started looking and then the thoughts slowed down (really I just began to see when I wasn’t thinking!). Then I started to see the play of thought, and the cards started to tumble.
Perhaps thought needs to slow a bit (or just stop) to see the play of thought and to notice that we are always aware. Aware before thoughts, letting that energy that ‘leaked’ to thoughts travel it’s own course.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.10.09 6:52 pm
Hi Gilbert
I’ve been sharing this website to others that don’t have any understanding or basis for this, I know the ‘people’ here won’t like to hear this, but what is said here is for the non-duality people, or in other words the people that understand some of the terminology and ideas here . . . I feel this is a bit of a shame . . . but then that maybe the only audience ready to hear/consider the pointers.
Posted by Lee on 12.10.09 7:58 pm
No issue.
I simply commented on one of Ric’s posts.
It was clear that Ric (in that post at least) was describing a variation of solipsism.
Taking the ‘first person’ perspective as being exclusively the perspective of Awareness is not uncommon these days.
But I do understand that solipsism can be a touchy subject in some nonduality circles, so I won’t mention it again if you don’t. (Smiling.)
Lee
Posted by gilbert on 12.10.09 9:39 pm
The appearance of taking the first person perspective does imply that there is a first person – however there is no proof that there is such a thing as a ‘person’ anywhere to be found. What is being pointed to is that there is NO person – not one that is real, one that has any independent existence apart from the pure cognition that is spontaneously happening ‘prior’ to any ‘form’ or idea of being a person – there is no person that could have the capacity to see or know anything. The idea that there is is just more thoughts arising and disappearing.
Just because the association arises there with you, that there is something similar about ‘non duality talk’ and Solipsism may well be totally fascinating to you. So what? There are a thousand paths we can go down, so far as what Non Duality is LIKE. It is all pointless.
What is being pointed to has NO ‘point’ or ‘circumference’.
It is this all encompassing Presence, which cannot be negated. Why not accept the challenge and really SEE if you can find this ‘I’ that is supposed to be ‘who’ you are?
We can debate all the apparent qualities of it and none of it will ever flip over into ‘enlightenment’ or any other conceptualized ‘goal’. What is being pointed to is totally radical from the perspective of mind. Yet it is ordinary awareness – which is ‘with’ every sentient being.
Each ‘one’ is the ‘ONE’. This will never makes sense for the logic network of the mind.
Enough said.
Posted by fernando on 12.11.09 1:25 am
Awareness is NOT a perspective. First person (‘I’) only points to this perspective-less Awareness.
Awareness, what you REALLY are, is the IS-ness of everything.
‘You’ (Awareness) are not seeing from any point. You are no-where… and every-where.
Posted by fernando on 12.11.09 1:45 am
‘Schyzophrenia’ is a MYTH !
There is absolutely no evidence that so called ‘schyzophrenia’ is an illness. So, it’s not an illness… and so, Psychiatry (Biochemical Psychiatry) is a fraud. A criminal fraud.
Posted by gilbert on 12.11.09 3:27 am
Consider this:
How could a thought or concept EVER divide this clear and present awareness into duality?
It never did and it never will.
Posted by fernando on 12.11.09 3:47 am
«… The mind may keep producing thoughts, doubts and questions. That is what it does when it doesn’t understand something. However, this issue is the ONE thing that mind cannot understand. The only thing that can be done is to see clearly its own limits – true humility and surrender. By looking straight into its reasoning and by exposing its erroneous beliefs and its incapacity to unravel this riddle it then quiets down. The ‘me’ must be seen to be a concept only.
What is this that IS permanent? For there IS something present at all times though it be intangible to thought or the senses. It cannot be denied and it’s noticeable if the mind quiets down a bit. It’s the most ordinary and simple ‘thing’. Removing the mind confusion reveals it in its wordlessness and calm. Total acceptance of what is. Total presence and love.» (Felipe Oliveira)
Posted by Jacob on 12.11.09 4:27 am
Hey Ric theres a tripping up over here going on when looking in direct experience the body still gets related to in the seeing. Is it best to just keep dropping the body idea and noticing what else is here? – cheers man – love Jacob
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.11.09 5:58 am
Hello Jacob, I have replied to the first post you made above, Love Ric.
Posted by ricnz1 on 12.11.09 6:23 am
Yeah It is definitely key to see that presence is simply present when thought is not there. Yes “everything” is an idea, in direct experience you can actually only find knowing; when you look at appearances all you find is knowing taking the shape of the appearance(including thought). Just like waves are made out of water; but water is not made out of waves. Stay with the key basic point ,this simple aware presence is always here and you are that. From that basic fact, just let it all unfold from that. Any searching is searching away from this ever present immediacy. When the mind starts to do this, or say that awareness is not present, just see it. Love Ric.
Posted by Jacob on 12.11.09 6:48 am
Beauty thanks x
Posted by areti on 12.11.09 10:45 am
Just wanted to let everyone know that the meetings in Second Life (SL) are fantastic and I would encourage you all to come along if you have the time. Get on there now and familiarize yourself with this virtual world.
The last few meetings have been hosted by Gilbert, Randall and Jason. You have the opportunity to ask any questions that might arise for you as well as to address them to any one of the speakers. The meetings are on Tuesdays at 7pm Pacific time (SL time)(Wednesdays at 2pm Australian time) and Sundays at 6am Pacific time (to cater for those in Europe).
On the 23 December, Paul Hedderman will be hosting the meeting. Paul runs meetings in non-duality for those in the recovery program (12 steps – AA, NA etc). It is well worth a visit.
Posted by gilbert on 12.11.09 8:31 pm
A new program is about to be published.
Throughout the ages there have always been those who ‘know’ and they share their effortless ‘pointing’ without making a fuss or dressing up as a special messenger. It is always simple. It is so simple the seeker often dismisses the pointing as being…”too obvious and too simple – it can’t be true – it is just too simple”.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.11.09 8:49 pm
It seems all one need to do is look without interpretation, looking at ‘your’ hand is not ‘your’ hand until you make it yours, is that all there is to it?
It can’t be that simple, aren’t we meant to be swept off our feet into eternal bliss when we see what really is?
Expectation is made of the mind, and shadows the obvious.
Even believing you have a head isn’t possible to prove by direct experience (just heard Catherine Hardings audio
Posted by zenclouded on 12.11.09 8:59 pm
Thanks Ric,
Nice simplicity – there is a gentle peace that comes from it.
Posted by zenclouded on 12.11.09 9:08 pm
Paul Hedderman is straight shooting, has colourful delivery and full of energy – I have his site saved to my favourites! See you in Second Life!
Posted by gilbert on 12.11.09 11:26 pm
Nothing to prove and no one to prove it.
The immediate experiencing needs no back up proof.
It needs no translation into dualistic terms.
As has been pointed out many times – understanding is wordless and silent – the natural state has no words.
Being what you are is effortless.
Trying to be what you are not is exhausting and a fruitless activity.
just because 99.9999% of the world is playing that game does not mean you have to play that game.
Be quiet and SEE.
Posted by Ronna on 12.12.09 6:01 am
Thanks Gilbert, these few lines “say it all”!!! Cuts through all the unecessary discussions, descriptions, methods, paths all of it!!!
Posted by zenclouded on 12.12.09 8:11 pm
Thanks for sharing Areti
Posted by RishiEd on 12.13.09 4:03 pm
I just want to thank you Gilbert and Areti for the podcasts and the website. I enjoy hearing the non-teaching. It does my heart good.
Posted by gilbert on 12.18.09 9:19 pm
Don’t take the thumbs down personally. There is no answer in the mind – or you could say that there are endless answers, which constantly change and morph into more questions and more and more theories.
Some just don’t ‘get that point’ that there is no answer in the mind, no matter how much you think about it and no matter how much the point that there is no answer there is hammered home. It is a rare thing for anyone to truly ‘hear’ what is being pointed out.