Urban Guru Cafe
Discovering what you truly are
74. Talkin’ about nothin’ – Kenneth Madden
Posted on 03.08.10 2:31PM under Kenneth Madden
Kenneth Madden is from Galway, Ireland, and is a relatively unknown ‘speaker’ on Non Duality. That ‘relatively unknown’ is about to change and many will enjoy Kenneth’s expression, simple and direct. This is it – just as it is. He is also an accomplished photographer and you can see some excellent examples of his work on his site. Sure enough ‘Never not Here’ interviewed Kenneth shortly after this program was published.
Kenneth’s Blogsite is here.
It’s a bit of fun and it’s high time too – a good laugh may just nudge its way out of an overly concerned seeker’s big wooly pullover.
Music by a truly wonderful band called Planxty, who once upon a time were Ireland’s most popular folk group (unless we are mistaken). We love Irish music here at the UGC.
The UGC is a free podcast site – uncompromising and yet quite enjoyable. – Small donations are welcome.
Our promise is to entertain without being overly serious and yet still bring it all back to direct pointing – with no overbearing ‘personalities’ pushing their own ‘wheelbarrow message’ about themselves and how sacred they are.
Posted by gilbert on 03.08.10 2:58 pm
Welcome to another hole in the ground. We keep diggin’ with no sign of a way out. Wouldn’t it be wise to stop and take a good look at what is truly going on?
Three men were digging a large hole in the ground. The boss came along and was astonished to see the big pile of dirt. “What are you going to do with this big pile of dirt?” he asked the leading hand. “Oh don’t you worry about that, I have already figured that one out – we will just dig another hole and stick it in there”.
Posted by Ronna on 03.08.10 3:10 pm
Gilbert, Just in time and this is most likely the funniest podcast yet!!! So true, so real . . .
Posted by Scarfox on 03.08.10 5:17 pm
God love the pattern that results in the Irish. Brilliant program, this is it and there is no one who suffers suffering.
Posted by fernando on 03.09.10 1:10 am
«What is being pointed to has no room for the concept of Duality or Non-Duality/Advaita. It has no room, no space for concept. It is so immediately THIS and so simply and obviously what IS, that the Duality-Non Duality debate has as much significance as a leaf scattering along cold concrete. Wholeness arises as confused message and wholeness arises as a clear message.
The juicy sweetness, the boundless freedom of everything, the unconditional love that is THIS is speaking to you always and is totally beyond understanding. It is already what is, already this. What is being sought is already what is. So simple, so open, so ordinary and also totally beyond any effort to describe its beauty.
Amazing.» (Kenneth Madden)
Posted by claudia on 03.09.10 1:26 am
Hahaha, wonderful, so refreshing, truly ‘unmaddening’ – like drinking from an uncontaminated mountain well! How I love this plain, unsophisticated talking: “There is nobody doing anything…No one is closer or further away from this…The uncompromising nondual message is a total complete leveller – this is it, right now, whatever is arising…”
Thank you UGC for digging another hole!
P.S. I am blown away by Ken’s photography
Posted by Cheryl on 03.09.10 6:28 am
“I found that it (this, now) was a million times more incredible than my mind could ever have imagined and yet stunningly ordinary and simple.” KM
I had a friend describe it as like a sudden download of information.
You keep saying ‘how can anyone miss it!’ There is certainly no one here trying to miss it.:) In fact all I do know is that it’s true…reality is as close as your breath. When that moment of pure seeing and clarity will ‘arrive’ is anyone’s guess. Perhaps clear pointing, without the pretense of searching, needs to be heard a million times? Who knows.
Thank you again for your efforts to convey this wonderful message, this message of immediate knowing.
Posted by gilbert on 03.09.10 10:07 am
How could anyone miss it?
They can’t really miss it at all because as Ken points out ‘this is it’. I remember the same insight hitting me many years ago (in the appearance of time) and I wrote it down, in big letters, and stuck in one the wall. Every time I noticed the ‘sign’ I could not dispute it. However, in the appearance, it seemingly took a few more years before I heard some very clear pointing, before it was fully realized. Language implies time and there is no time.
All the appearance of duration (time) is nothing but THAT (this) and it NEVER deviates, not one iota.
Laughing spontaneously appears….and crying too.
Equanimity does not ‘come about’ – it already IS.
I agree, it is a good program….but then again, they are all pretty damn good. ‘Good’ implies ‘bad’ for the mind.
May all the angels in heaven assist you and the devil too. But KNOW that it is all a dream and that there are NO others, no people, no angels and no devil. You are THAT – One without a second.
Posted by albert on 03.09.10 11:51 am
Wonderful! Gilbert, how do you find these people, or do they find you first? This is huge, so to speak.
Thank you UGC!
Posted by suki on 03.09.10 1:14 pm
We have been led to believe that thought or thinking happens in the brain? But this is a thought too! It appears just like everything else that appears, but where? Right, Here.
Where is Here? The same can be asked of a dream.
Whether it is a waking dream or a sleeping dream, they seamlessly flow into each other and always appear right Here. Where is Here? – NOWHERE – NOW-HERE.
You are Awareness. Awareness is NoWhere to be found. But here You are NOW!
Posted by Cheryl on 03.09.10 1:21 pm
Maybe you’re a bit of the devil or an angel in disguise.:)
Posted by Randall Friend on 03.09.10 1:57 pm
What mechanism is necessary to BE? Do you exist? Can you deny that you exist? You have to exist, you have to be here, to deny existence.
What IS that Being, is the question. You presently take it as a separate Being, a separate Life, a confined Being, housed in a body-mind.
It is not “a being”. It is BEING. Just Being. Life. One Life – that which pumps the blood, spins the planets, turns the plant to face the sun. In fact the very form of the so-called “things” IS that Life.
You take yourself to be an independent Life – in control of part of the functioning. You take yourself to be apart FROM Life, a temporary being which sadly came to BE only to immediately start the march toward death.
What you are IS Life itself – THAT which IS – THAT which appears to be the Universe and all it contains. That Life is not owned by a “me” – it is all there is.
Those thoughts which speak of a “me-image” are also Life, expressing. Yet when taken as some independent thing, apart from Life, there is suffering, because the ultimate end of any “thing” is death.
You are not a “thing” – you are Life itself. So you can say you are no-thing, as any “thing” is only Life, expressing, therefore it isn’t really anything at all, apart FROM Life. Or you can say you are every-thing, as every “thing” is only Life, expressing.
When you walk outside, look up at the trees and the sky – Life is looking at ITSELF. There is no “me” looking. That is only imagination, limitation, bondage.
Therefore that certainty of Being is Life, knowing itself. How much seeking is necessary for Life to know itself? How far should Life go, to recognize itself? What experience is necessary for Life to know itself?
None. It already knows itself, only it takes itself as a “me”.
Posted by Joe Cap on 03.10.10 2:53 am
Randall,
There was confusion about this ‘I am life’ concept because I was questioning whether ‘I’ am the seeing or the appearance itself. And then there was focusing on everyone saying “I am not that” and “I AM THAT” and so on….
‘I’ AM what is animating the appearance because everything rises and falls in awareness ‘I’. If joe looks at a dead body or live body doesn’t matter because they both are appearance which require presence awareness ‘I’- that’s all BS dual concepts too.
So I guess awareness itself is all that can even be pointed to, period.- but even talking about it makes no sense because that requires going into imagination/memory.
WOW, talking about this is completely ridiculous.
Posted by fernando on 03.10.10 3:50 am
It’s completely paradoxical to the mind…
You are no-thing (seeing-knowing has absolutely no objetive quality), AND you are all-things that appear. You (no-thing) appear AS all-things.
‘Talking about this’ is an expression of what you are.
Posted by Scarfox on 03.10.10 5:19 am
I guess it’s all you but when you label it you are none of it. He just said that you are everything and nothing, not an awareness which is separate from so called objects.
Posted by gilbert on 03.10.10 9:44 am
The life force is registering in this pure cognition as form. The One energy is forming the body and all the thoughts, feelings, sensations plus the world, without separating itself into parts.
Via the form everything is known in the immediacy. There is no separation.
So even this life force, which animates everything is ‘pointing’ at the empty space-like awareness in which SEEING-KNOWING is ‘happening’.
You are that.
You are not a ‘happening’ or an ‘event’ in ‘time’ or ‘space’.
There is no need to accept or reject anything.
A response may appear “What a relief”.
A relief for whom?
The habit of believing that I am an individual needs to be broken.
From a worldly sense, such a suggestion is unheard of. Preposterous.
From a world sense the whole point is to fortify the belief in being a separate individual and to protect that belief with all your might.
Hence all the conflict and suffering.
Take a closer look at this ‘drama’ of life. Investigate the images and see what it all is. It is similar to a movie projected on a screen. Go up to the screen and see that it is all nothing at all like it appears to be. Expand it, examine it. The character in this movie (me) is a mind projection.
Seeing it for what it is frees up the fixation of focus on the illusion.
You do not have to do any ten day meditation retreats or watch endless videos about non duality.
There is actually nothing to do, apart from seeing what is.
Posted by piersede on 03.10.10 1:32 pm
Kenneth made an amusing point about the drinker being just as likely to wake up as the meditator. He’s taking the Tony Parsons ultimate hard-line on this, that there’s nothing you can you do, no one to do it etc. I think its a leap too far, however, to say there’s absolutely no link between seeking and awakening. Statistically speaking, far more ‘seekers’ have woken up than those going about their business and suddenly getting spontaneous realisation. Since we’re not running the show anyway, then the urge to seek must be consciousness trying to come back to itself. Longing for wholeness, which prompts all manner of spiritual and not so spiritual practices, propels the fragmented ‘me’ to seek unicity. From this perspective, the meditator may indeed be more likely to wake up than the barfly, because they’re seeking wholeness to compensate for their longing, rather than anaesthetic.
Posted by gilbert on 03.10.10 3:24 pm
“far more ’seekers’ have woken up than those going about their business” is a calculation that you cannot make. What data apart from hear say do any of us have to make such a judgment. AND many who propose that they woke up are just telling a good story because it puts ‘butter and jam’ on their bread.
There is NO waking up.
Let me ask you one simple question.
Are you unaware right now?
All this nonsense about enlightenment and special states is just a bunch of concepts APPEARING in this natural Wakefulness.
I rest my case Your Honor.
Posted by Randall Friend on 03.10.10 3:34 pm
Joe,
It isn’t “joe” looking at anything. Joe is appearance, concept, taking the chain to be apart from Gold, then expecting the chain to perform spiritual tasks to somehow arrive at a realization of Gold.
Chain never arrives at Gold. Chain IS Gold – chain is a concept OF Gold, a form OF Gold, an appearance OF Gold. Chain cannot do anything, because chain doesn’t exist apart from Gold.
Joe will never arrive at Enlightenment. Joe will never figure this out. Joe will never understand, simply because Joe is only an appearance of that essence. It isn’t Joe which is presently seeing – it isn’t Joe who is seeking. Like the chain, Joe doesn’t exist except as a concept, a name or label, a form OF that essence.
The “real you” is the essence. Can the resultant appearance be apart from it’s source? If there is the feeling of body, the appearance of thought, even the thought “I AM” – can any of these “arisings” be apart from their source, their essence?
Can YOU be apart from the essence, from what IS?
Posted by fernando on 03.10.10 4:11 pm
It’s only THIS PRESENT thought that gives continuity to the story of ‘me’ and suffering. If THIS PRESENT thought was not, there could not be ‘me’ nor suffering.
It’s ONLY this thought… and this… and this…
Posted by gilbert on 03.10.10 5:22 pm
It is NOT the thought that gives continuity at all. It is the belief in a thought and its reference to ‘me’ that deludes ‘us’ into a ‘time realm’. Take the meaning out of any thought and it is harmless.
Why do ‘I’ hang onto the very thing that makes ‘me’ suffer?
Courage to investigate what is truly ‘happening’ will appear without prior notice.
Posted by Sandy Jones on 03.11.10 8:41 am
How ’bout this one:
“It is inevitable that there will appear to be the dissolusion of all that stands between ourselves and a full knowledge of the Truth. Inasmuch as the world appears to reside within the awareness we are, the dissolution that began within appears outwardly as the world’s search for freedom and the upheavel it brings. Our inner turmoil never ends until we reckon Identity as already arrived and then end our attempt to lift an incorrect self-concept up to the Real.
If we are to see the world scene disclose the underlying, overlying Harmony “that is even now spread over the whole face of the land,” we must make this re-identification in fact and end the nonsense of actring out from the position of a sponge trying to soak up wisdom. To do what? To steadfastly reckon Self from the standpoint of Perfection. No other view will bring Peace so quickly to the human scene.
The light is dawning because it is already here. New ideas are coming into focus and old landmarks are passing away. Cherished notions, some of them the very pillars of society, are being shaken to the roots. We are finding most of them built on foundations of sand. Many institutions charged with the revelation of God, Truth, Realty are found not to be giving freedom to their charges but witholding it…not dispensing Light, but darkness, not unbinding men, but shackling them; not seeking out new Rays of Light and investigating them impartially, but, for conscious or unconcscious reasons of self-preservation, doing everything in their power to keep Light from being seen for fear fear, say they, their present light will be adulterated. As if the Truth needed protecting.
Oh, but let it be understood, these very institutions are a blessing and they are serving a most necessary purpose. How would we know that Identity IS Omniscience Itself without first attempting to place that omniscience “out there” in a bible or institution or philosophy? How would we learn beyond all doubt that Light itself is being our Identity without first living the futility and impossibility of a weary traveller trying to reach the Light?.
(William Samuel—The Child Within Us Lives!A Synthesis of Science, Religion and metaphysics)
Posted by Scarfox on 03.11.10 8:45 am
Is belief not a thought, or are you saying that consciousness can believe?
Posted by Sandy Jones on 03.11.10 10:46 am
May I take a stab at that one?—
Awareness/ Consciouness, what ever you want to call it-can indeed believe-of course It can, you see this happening all the time, you see Consciouness is all that is, it is all the believing, all thought, all ‘doing’ all thinking, doing, wondering, writing, saying, telling, dreaming, asking, praying and Yes, believing. Understand that this Consciousness is Not the belief itself, but it is quite capable of believing-Obviously. This That Is is All inclusive any ‘happening’ be it believing or lie-ing or preaching the Truth is happening or “being done” as you put it, here within the only ‘place’ it can be done; Here As This Consciousness, This Awareness-there is nothing “other than” that is able to ‘believe’ without Consciousness being that believer and the beliefs. If there is any believing then it is happening Here and Now Within This Mind, Alone, Single, Only, And All. Infinite All-ness is all That is and All I Am and all that you are. One means One– do you know of another mind separate from This that can do this believing? Even If I believe it to be otherwise, I am still believing it can be otherwise, Always, Only, and Totally Right Here and Now As This Awareness/Consciousness. Awareness knows what It is, It is not affected, changed, worried, upset, nor is it stopped from Being by any ones beliefs. (Ed: Even this note with all the spelling mistakes (now corrected) is THAT.)
Posted by gilbert on 03.11.10 10:03 pm
Awareness does not know what it is. It is No Thing. In the same equation, you cannot know what you are either. You can only know what you are not.
Everything IS awareness but NOT as it appears to be (things). As it IS it is naked, unadorned and empty. There is nothing to know, or get.
If we assign ‘awareness’ as a ‘thing’ with an independent nature, that is objectification of the very activity of cognition and so what will cognize the cognition? If awareness is an independent ‘thing’, then what is knowing that independent ‘thing’ if not what you are?
Also, if you believe that there is some method or way of realizing your true nature through BELIEF then you are most certainly deluded.
Belief may appear to ‘play a role’ in the ‘apparent process’ of realization but if you think that by ‘accepting’ belief, all will be well, then my God and all his wisdom help you.
Some write as if they know, and some of the comments that appear here are nothing but word games that actually render themselves meaningless, even in the space of one sentence – and yet they are presented as some profound ‘understanding’.
I am not necessarily referring to any recent posting here, so don’t jump to any conclusions.
As I repeatedly point out, there is no point in pretending to know.
Repeating the words of your guru like a parrot is simply not going to cut through the erroneous beliefs.
If these ‘characters’ could actually see the nonsense that they write, they would cease from making them and be quiet.
Even so, anyone is welcome to make a comment. You may not like some responses to them though.
It is not a matter of what some call the Advaita Police jumping on every comment and we discourage such activities.
It is all words and how they are arranged can bring forth a recognition, which is sorely missed for so many.
The programs on this site bring together a range of clear speakers, those who KNOW what they are talking about.
This is a rare thing. The usual format is very often a mixed up mess of all kinds of shenanigan pushers with a few genuine speakers, who somehow make their way in there. The presenters often look like they need quite a bit of therapy and they often seem lost as to what is being talking about. Some seem to have attention deficit syndrome but I am sure it is not so. It just comes across like that.
Posted by Scarfox on 03.12.10 7:40 am
Gilbert: It is NOT the thought that gives continuity at all. It is the belief in a thought and its reference to ‘me’ that deludes ‘us’ into a ‘time realm’.
Mike: Is belief not a thought, or are you saying that consciousness can believe?
Gilbert: Also, if you believe that there is some method or way of realizing your true nature through BELIEF then you are most certainly deluded…
Is that your answer to the question? I don’t know why you went on that tangent when no one said anything about belief like that… Or did you give that one to Sandy? So consciousness can believe.
Posted by gilbert on 03.12.10 9:43 am
Who went on a tangent?
All tangents are conceptual paths in the mind.
Have you ever gone down one of them?
This is a hyper-gym – free exercises in ‘self-discovery’ and the ‘field’ is not some pre-conceived ‘climbing frame’.
WHATEVER brings about the necessary recognition is totally valid.
Those who want to validate their mind map will not be satisfied here.
You are No Thing.
There is no way around that one.
It is pathetic to witness the potentially free intellect spin off into endless deluded states of mind, simply because of some stubborn hanging on to a reference point that has no existence (me).
There is no instructor in this Gym. You are ALONE.
One Without a Second.
Many aspirants fall for the ‘I am a teacher’ story. It is nothing but delusional concepts. If this statement shocks you, then why don’t you ‘wake up’? The alarm is ringing itself off the ledge.
When it crashes to the floor and shatters into a thousand pieces, when it all disintegrates, WHO will put Humpty Dumpty back together again?
Are you waiting for GOD or some sacred Guru to shake you out of the dream?
You are ALONE. NO ONE can do anything for you.
All the spiritual nonsense about love and compassion is just a band aid on a festering wound.
The ‘me’ is POST SEEING-KNOWING.
Recede into the clear seeing and drop all attachments to concepts and ‘things’.
Posted by Fred on 03.12.10 10:32 am
Awareness is always undeniably present but usually not recognised because all the focus goes into the story of me. The “this is it” concept never worked for me because it seemed to suggest that simply being in my normal ‘lost in the story” was it and I should be happy with this (I never was), the idea that the drinker is the same as the meditator so I may as well not do anything and go down the pub — is like saying “keep on living in a way which doesn’t work for you because logically it is still awareness”
Yes “this is it” but only of any use if it is recognised. We can be obedient non-dualers and deliberately do nothing because we have been told there is no one , or spend a little time noticing the already present peaceful awareness that is fully present now and actively and gently choose to notice it more and more ( rather than wait for the naughty me to drop away, which rarely happens) so that it naturally is recognised more and more.
Who the hell cares if the me is there or not?
Posted by gilbert on 03.12.10 11:15 am
Everything is clear and self-evident. The message is here on this site, plain and simple. It may appear to be in a package that is entertaining but the message is here. Sometimes it is blunt and often it may be far too direct for the ‘general public’ but the general public is not of concern here. Anyone who finds their way here is no doubt ‘seeking’ something. It can be assumed naturally that what is being sort is one’s true nature. That is the core of ‘why’ this website has been activated. Yes, it is all in the appearance but the core of it all is not appearing, just as what you truly are does not appear as an object.
All we have is the appearance. We use the mind to explore the mind and thus come to understand the mind. The mind is infinite and cannot be exhausted.
Wherever you look, it is as though the mind is obliged to open up in its infinite display of ever more detail.
Where are you seeing from?
Is there a ‘you’ seeing?
Or is there simply seeing ‘happening’?
There is no one to claim anything or hold you to ransom, except ‘your own’ belief in being something separate.
Investigate this belief and realize your own true nature.
‘The World’ is not interested in this venture.
So forget the world and investigate. It is so simple.
The mind makes everything complicated, when what is true is so simple.
Posted by Scarfox on 03.12.10 2:59 pm
You could have at least answered the question the second time around!
(Ed: State the question clearly and it will be answered)
Posted by gilbert on 03.12.10 3:22 pm
Does everything have to be spelled out, as if to kindergarden children?
Have a look at your own questions and see what they point at.
Everything is clearly obvious and self-evident.
Without a thought, the activity of knowing is present. It does not disappear just because a thought comes along.
WHO is the believer?
Saying that it is consciousness is a cop out.
Have look yourself.
If there is a touch of being offended by these words, then look closely at that ‘feeling’ and SEE what it is.
No one can do it for you…..and it is very obvious – clearly obvious.
Posted by Dogribb on 03.13.10 1:46 am
Kinder-garden ?I thought I was enrolled in A levels ! Now you have me riding the short bus.Do I qualify for the lunch program ? I have a note from me mum…All in jest Gil.Cane me in front of the class if it will help…LOL
Posted by Joe Cap on 03.13.10 1:52 am
“Does everything have to be spelled out, as if to kindergarten children?”
HA
YES! Maybe with pictures too.
A while back I asked Randall if he could explain this stuff to me as if I was a 4 year old.
Posted by Scarfox on 03.13.10 2:17 am
Posted by suki on 03.13.10 2:52 am
There is only Reality, and You are that reality. Not a “you” and reality. Reality is not an object, cannot be objectified, except as a concept (a concept too is a subtle object). Reality is always Present, Clear and Empty – yet everything appearing in IT or to You can be objectified and seen as distinct from You who is Seeing. You cannot See You, only objects that appear in or to You.
Objects are appearances Only. They have NO independent reality of their own. Their essence or source is dependent on You.
What You are is undefinable Pure Essence which is Sourceless and Limitless.
Posted by Sandy Jones on 03.13.10 3:19 am
What a joy ride all this—Reading all these entries is truly beautiful—You read down the page and it goes along, and the ride gets a little rough, things get a little shady—and then I see a clearing, I see the glimmer of a Sweet Light that I recognize–a twinkle coming from the sparks of The Child—Lo and Behold, we are being lead directly to the Child–or putting it UGC style of words, the Pure Essence, the Limitless Truth of Who We Really Are. “By Jove, look at that”, I said to myself–we’ve all found our way to The Child—–“Lest ye become as children you will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.” And “ …a Child shall lead them.”–Know it or not we are on our way to returning to the Child;the Real of us, it is the Child that we are looking for—and Here It is, plain as day, being pointed to, brought up where no one can miss it—A little boy on the short bus—The simple, pure, innocent, tender Child, this is within Us, is It–This is It–The pure, pristine,credulous, simple Child, the one that does not give two hoots in hell about all the intellectual mumbo-jumbo. The Child is The Christos, the Gnosis—and when accepted as one’s Identity—the Logos Itself. In my little life, in my little way of saying it, I know that God is All and God is Good, and that there is good in everything—and so it is. Tested, and proven Real.
Posted by fernando on 03.13.10 5:39 am
«Take the meaning out of any thought and it is harmless.
Why do ‘I’ hang onto the very thing that makes ‘me’ suffer?
Courage to investigate what is truly ‘happening’ will appear without prior notice.»
These enigmatic words, specially the last phrase, look like a Zen koan.
Thank you, Gilbert.
Posted by claudia on 03.13.10 7:44 am
“The answer is not in the mind!” – that is sure one of the most powerful pointers ever. One could say, thought is noise. It sure is not a difficult thing to discern thought, and immeadiately disregard it – let it be, let it pass. Between each thought there is silence. Seeing-knowing is aware of both – silence and noise. Recognition is in silence, in that boundless, thoughtless awareness. Instead of investing all the energy in thought and trying to solve the riddle rationally, become familiar with that space like awareness right here, right now, and thought will naturally loose its fierce grip.
Posted by claudia on 03.13.10 10:02 am
…though, strictly seen, there is only silence – everything else is an appearence only – appearing from and dissolving back into silence.
Posted by gilbert on 03.13.10 10:32 am
All the ‘objectification’ in ‘all the world’ will never make an object real.
There are NO objects and no subject.
There is NO ‘becoming’ anything.
What you are, is what you are.
End of story.
Posted by gilbert on 03.13.10 1:06 pm
There appears to be a whole bunch of ‘nutters’ who believe that if they can make peace with God, then all will be well and good. Concepts about a Higher Good and similar nonsense is just slavery to a conceptual dualism which one can never escape from, as that me.
No matter how good it all feels, it will be challenged and the shit will hit the fan at some point. Then repeating mantras and new age aphorisms will not help. Living in imaginary realms of mind, as if I have gone beyond all my troubles is a devil of a place to be.
We are not here to pacify the ‘seeker’. We are here to shake the living daylights out of it. If you think you can lull yourself into a nice little comfy place in the mind, then you are deluded.
There are hundreds of clear pointers on this site, in the programs and in the comment pages. There is enough to fill a 900 page book or more. What good is any of it if all it does is keep the search going? I have no qualms about losing or making friends here.
If you are just imitating what you hear, it is useless. It is not about learning a new fandangle language. Those who rush off to a meditation retreat in desperate anticipation of what is being pointed to will be disappointed, most probably.
What is being pointed to is right here, right now.
You do not have to DO anything. Just be open and see what is self-evident. Every insight that has ever ‘taken place’ has ‘happened’ right here, right now. There is no other time.
There is no prerequisite condition necessary.
Posted by Scarfox on 03.13.10 1:39 pm
Good idea, make a urban guru cafe book out of all the transcripts and insightful comments
Posted by nopathatall on 03.13.10 1:42 pm
as is!
Posted by Scarfox on 03.13.10 1:46 pm
Suki, does that really matter when in the podcast the Irishman says that this is it right here, whatever is arising, whatever feeling etc…
Posted by Scarfox on 03.13.10 1:57 pm
is that edit a joke? for the third time it was ” Mike: Is belief not a thought, or are you saying that consciousness can believe?” Literally the third time I posted that exact question now, and it was after you said something like ‘it’s not thoughts its the belief in them’… Then sandy said consciousness takes form of believing with no believer, and then you said saying consciousness is believing is a cop out.
Posted by bob on 03.13.10 2:08 pm
Clearly the best post I have read here. Brilliant Gilbert!
Posted by Cheryl on 03.13.10 2:46 pm
G: “We use the mind to explore the mind and thus come to understand the mind. The mind is infinite and cannot be exhausted.”
Different definition of mind? What happened to the answer is not in the mind? Is mind thought, concepts, memory and imagination? What is meant by the last sentence? Is it referring to what you are?
Posted by gilbert on 03.13.10 3:21 pm
It means that you can keep looking in the mind and it has no end.
Thought conflict can cease so long as the belief in ‘me’ is robbed of energy. But the mind will still ‘appear’ as thoughts, memory, ideas and concepts. Nothing changes and the words ‘me’ and ‘I’ continue to appear or be used without concern. What is missing is the struggle between reference points in the mind. The peace that appears due to that absence is pleasant and then after a little while it is the ordinary state of affairs. Why would anyone want to go back into that realm of confusion? No need. So, pointing happens in a thousand ways. Who cares? What has any path, method or practice, religion or even good behavior got to do with it?
It is only a me that can be angry or sad. It is only a me that can be disturbed by words.
That is the transient point in any drama.
Posted by gilbert on 03.13.10 3:59 pm
Okay Dumbo. Drop all concern with belief and what is left?
You might be good at twisting yourself into a knot with all these psychological definitions. Try the circus, they always are looking for new talent. (just kidding dopey)
Posted by Alex on 03.13.10 4:39 pm
Geez . . . all this bickering about the ineffable . . . it’s enough to make one stop seeking. Oops!
Posted by suki on 03.13.10 4:52 pm
Nothing matters!
Posted by Scarfox on 03.13.10 5:14 pm
honestly being is left or just knowing/sensing. Dog damn God is crying to.
Posted by Fred on 03.14.10 2:26 am
I ask myself why with so much non-duality stuff available, talks, mp3′s, meetings, books etc do most people not “get it”?…… I think that it has to do with the approach being overly conceptual. There is a distrust of any sort of practice and so all we are left with is words. Yes they can be powerful but after a while they become cliches. People are encouraged not to practice but invited to hear more and more words as if listening isn’t a goal based activity.
Also it would seem that if people don’t get it then it is their fault, or their ignorance… they simply aren’t ready, or need to suffer some more etc etc. Maybe it isn’t their fault but the fault of the non-duality teachings (disguised as being non-teachings) that are simply not up to the job.
The permanent falling away of the self is a rare event and so those for who this happens (most non-duality teachers) will then teach that it just happens and there is nothing you can do. (If adopted this concept is very imprisoning and people will wait for the self to drop away for years)
For most the self comes straight back and hangs around for a long time, perhaps always popping in and out. So a teaching is needed that is not based on the dropping away of the self, a teaching that shows that our real nature – awareness– is never affected by the presence or absence of a self— surely that is real freedom—truly unconditional—not dependent on any kundalini energy shift .
Conventionally we are told we are a separate self, nonduality dogma says we are not a separate self which is equally a dualistic extreme. Neither extreme really tells it.
Posted by gilbert on 03.14.10 9:13 pm
So…Fred….do you believe that your expression is free of dualistic notions?
The fact that awareness is never affected by the presence or absence of a ‘self’ cannot be taught.
The recognition that a self is non-existent is the only ‘proof’ one needs.
All that can be done is to point.
Instead of being critical why not point without compromise?
There is NO shift and it is just a way of speaking – because it feels like Heaven and Earth have shifted 180 degrees in less than a moment.
Of course all talk about an eminent shift is counter productive.
Yet all expressions are spontaneous and are what they are.
If we image that there are ‘others’ who need help, then we have missed the core pointing.
We can talk about it all until the Cock Crows a dozen times and nothing changes and everything changes.
The fulcrum point of pure being is actually emptiness.
If as a separate entity you find you way to that point, ‘you’ can never return to deluded states of mind.
Maybe that is why most avoid it with a passion.
Posted by Fred on 03.14.10 11:14 pm
Hi Gilbert…Thanks for replying. I guess my complaint was that after years of non-duality and its teachers I realized that it didn’t work for me. I ended up believing that any effort could only be done by a “me” and was therefore counterproductive. and that I was at the end of the road and there was no way forward and no practice or hope and all I could do was to continue going to non-duality meetings and searching the internet for non-duality content..I adopted all the non-dual concepts and jargon without having the instinctive realization and thus felt hopeless and empty (which I even thought was good because non-duality is without hope). I wasn’t alone either it seemed as if most others were the same, gathering more concepts, searching the internet, gobbling up the words with only minor flashes of insight and essentially thinking that enough exposure to the non-teachings would one day do it for them. Basically a lottery where we paid our $10, £10 at the door and waited for our numbers to come up. Only a few were winners.
Fortunately I did find a teaching that made it very very clear that there was no need to understand any of it and that actually had a simple practice which is to simply recognize awareness when I remember rather than to proliferate the stories , and to do this gently without trying to push anything away. Not to bring any new state about but to briefly acknowledge the already present peace and clarity again and again, and to let it grow and grow.
With this practice I notice that awareness is recognized a little more each day. The self has not dropped away and I cannot claim to be able to express myself non-dualistically, but I can now see how so much of the non-duality stuff has become a new dogma and that many are caught up in it.
The best of non-duality is the pointers imho, the worst are some teachers who claim there is no one who can follow pointers and so the seekers are only left with their non-teachers concepts to think about. The words are often beautiful and try to steer the seeker away from being a seeker, but usually end up causing the seeker to think about it even more (well that was my experience).
i really believed that if I was making any attempt to get it then it was doomed. For example Bob says pause a thought. Now I didn’t even try that because my head was filled with another teachers words which said “who is going to do that”. Nowadays I don’t care who is there or not, I have a go at pausing a thought and find that what is left is peace and clarity. And so I discovered that concepts about doing or not doing, self and no self, choice and no choice , practice versus no-one to practice, were just empty concepts. … and lets face it non-duality usually stresses the extreme of nothingness and emptiness.
So now when I hear more podcasts and beautiful words about how it is all prior and how the self can’t achieve it and yadder, yadder, yadder I heave a sigh of relief, I really don’t need this extra knowledge all i need to do is notice the awareness that hears the words. Don’t get me wrong well written words can have a profound effect, but the seeker (or I) needed to be told again and again to practice awareness actively rather than wait for it to knock on my door, or to try and understand it (it never would have happened).
So for some seekers they hear that there is no one and nothing to do and they are already it and it all drops away, great! job done. However for the others who have been devoted to non-duality for years with no real effect I say get out it’s not working try something else. It all becomes too conceptual and seekers merely collect more concepts and pronounce on how beautiful they are.
If no-self, no-choice, and no-practice is not working then maybe try, no problem with self, choice and practice. And put two fingers up to non-dual logical correctivism which can be a straightjacket dogma.
I guess that I needed to get that off my chest. I do imagine that there are others who need help and I hope that those who have spent years in the non-dual trap realize that it isn’t the ultimate teaching with no other options.
I give thanks to many of the non-dual teachers (like Bob, Annette Nibley, Stephen Wingate, Gilbert etc) who have some very useful stuff to say and I have enjoyed the podcasts too. But at the end of the day the concepts just become confusing unless awareness is made primary( and yes chosen actively) .
Posted by gilbert on 03.15.10 3:07 pm
Thank you Fred. It is good to express oneself and it gives an opportunity to see one’s beliefs and erroneous ideas clearly.
The apparent ‘battle of words’ that appear on these pages from time to time are also interesting. We shovel away the bullshit and more bullshit appears. We attack ‘others’ over minor or major points of understanding. what good is any of it?
(From my website note today)
There are no prerequisites.
There is only One and THAT is already complete and unsullied.
There is NO BECOMING whole and complete or merging with Oneness.
ALL EVENTS are known to be transient appearances, no matter how grand or minor they appear to be.
All that ‘appears to happen’ (or not) is the dissolution of BELIEF in being separate.
That is totally available NOW. Once ‘belief’ is understood it is impossible to be caught in belief again.
Why? Because the central character has been undermined and the fabricated ground upon which it seemingly stands has ‘fallen away’.
It just can’t get a grip any longer. If this is not recognized as being true right now? Then ‘when’ will it ever be recognized?
Stop and SEE………it is true…it is true……..it is true.
Doubt is merely a thought.
THERE is NO answer in the mind.
Why do you keep looking there for one?
Posted by Fred on 03.16.10 7:13 pm
Thanks. Yes these things do seem to come up to be seen.
Posted by gilbert on 03.18.10 12:28 pm
Belief is energy.
Thought is energy.
What you are is the source of this energy.
All there is is an appearance of patterns forming from the SAME energy.
One without a second.
My point is: You know that you are. That activity of knowing cannot be divided by the mind – yet it appears to be endlessly divided.
All that is necessary is to ‘stay’ as the knowing and realize that that is all there is. KNOWING.
Everything else appears and disappears.