The stumbling block has been the idea that beyond consciousness you still are – but you don’t know it.

But the more I contemplate this, it’s becoming clearer that consciousness, cognition, perception etc., arise with the organism, and are only a concern for the organism.

This Being beyond consciousness seems to be a kind of pure presence, complete in itself. And although we can’t reflect on it in deep sleep, we can get a taste of this presence right here, now (where else?)

Regards, Suki

As I have done on many occasions, I immediately I looked to see if there was a glimmer of the possibility that awareness or knowing was unbroken.

At first I had the usual sense of heaviness followed by cynicism. “There’s no way that knowing was here… it’s all just arriving right now…” I thought.

But then… it became clear. What was arriving with its heaviness and tangibility… was mind stuff.

I have been mistaking the awareness of complex mind mechanisms; cognition, perception, memory, imagination etc., with pure awareness.

What if there is a pure awareness; like an extreme form of amnesia. Like a pure light that only seems tangible due to the objects it lights up.

It has no qualities like memory, recognizing, perceiving etc., since those qualities are of the mind and only become apparent when the light of awareness animates the mind (or something like that.)

So it is a knowing – but not in the usual sense of knowing that the computer is on. It’s a pure transparent impersonal knowing without perception, recognition, memory (mind stuff) etc.

For various reasons, this cannot be proven or disproven… but it feels more of a reality than other explanations (especially materialistic ones.)

This light is here… whether mind knows it or not.

(I realize that some of you have been saying something similar – so thank you.)

This is like asking I want to examine a particle of Wholeness. There is no partiality in Wholeness. Likewise the continuum of Knowing is seamless and Whole. There is nothing separate from it that can know it…..You are the Totality.

Suki:

This ‘you’ that exists in deep sleep could perfectly well be mind. The fact that there are no forms in deep sleep does indeed suggest that the mind has let go of objects. Deep sleep could well be cognition without content. There is no sense that any form of knowing (in any meaningful sense of the word) is going on at all. This is my main point.

Anatta:

There are current teachings that claim that there can be awareness without objects. There are problems with this as it cannot be verified. If there was even a glimmer of a sense that awareness was present when objects subside, then this sense itself would be a subtle object thus negating the claim.

It cannot experientially be proven that there is an unbroken continuum of knowing / conscious awareness. So the claim that we are these things is theoretical.

What’s this ‘you’ that does not cease to exist in deep sleep? The answer is not in the mind, since the mind is at complete rest or abeyance in deep sleep. There is a subtler Knowing that elucidates this fact. That which knows this is not personal. If there was no Knowing of this, then the mind would continue on in ‘waking state’ seamlessly from the last thought without interruption,without any knowledge of deep sleep. The body does not know it slept, the mind is alerted to the fact by the Knowing Presence which always IS.

Don’t you just love the ‘problems’ for the mind and ‘I’ thought during the ‘waking’ state. In deep sleep what problems are there? There are NO problems for what you are, only for what you think you are………and even then, they are not really problems. Problems for Who?

Hello Lee. That’s a good question. In the absence of consciousness, there is nothing that we can describe as an experience – no time, space, me, you, etc. This isn’t to say that one ceases to exist as undivided being. Without the dream of consciousness, what would the “experience” of oneness be like?

I define consciousness as awareness of contrast. What if you take the contrast out of the equation and leave just the awareness – what would that experience be like? Without the conceptual division of knower/known, seer/seen – in undivided oneness, what is left? What boundaries or limitions are there? Being is not an experience or perceivable thing, though it can manifest as consciousness (and, therefore, everything). The fact that anything appears at all is proof of it’s existence. In the absence of consciousness the questioner and all questions also disappear so they don’t have an absolute reality (and are bound to fade as all appearances do).

Words don’t touch and mean nothing to the absolute so, of course, in the lack of consciousness the words “I AM” mean nothing. There is only that. It can’t be known (as there is no imaginary split between a conceptual knower apart from a conceptual known). It is perfectly present right now as the emptiness in which the world of form appears. It is not at all diminished by consciousness. Without “it”, there would be no consciousness or the appearance of any other thing.

I am not an authority so I may be completely wrong. Look for yourself and don’t let these words derail you. Words are never true – they are symbols and in no way touch the real.

Is there an award for saying “consciousness” the most times in one post? If so, I think I’m the weiner!

This idea that since you can be awoken from deep sleep it somehow proves that consciousness is there, is a spiritual cliche.

As I said; you don’t cease to exist in deep sleep, but there is no continuation of knowing/consciousness.

I too do not rely on science for answers – but I also do not believe all the spiritual jargon that is so readily quoted.

Please be totally honest with me Fernando (and anyone else), do you claim that there is direct subjective knowing going on when you are in deep sleep or under anesthetic? Please take your time to really answer this honestly without resorting to something you have heard.

So the knowing must be a knowing that cannot be verified by any means apart from a sophisticated metaphysical theory.

Knowing means knowing (every child will understand that!) There is no knowing (in any meaningful sense of that word) under anesthetic, in deep sleep, unconsciousness and death.

The only way out, so to speak, is to honestly and persistently question that idea. The desire to question comes when, once and for all, appearance ceases to satisfy.

You are no thing – not a thing. The subject of this present moment, this present experience, is not appearing anywhere. It has no content, no location, nothing individual or particular. It has no limits either in space or time. It is simply HERE and it’s nature is knowing, effortless and unconditional knowing.

It has always been there, invariable and obvious, although attention is on thoughts, on experiences. What is it by which experience is known?

You are the only reality. The rest is merely apparent. What is apparent isn’t real of itself. When the appearance is given a name, it is also conceptually separated from that invariable presence. However upon close investigation, upon honest and earnest recognition of reality AS IT IS, no actual separation can be found.

First notice that you, as the subject, are empty and formless yet always here. Then notice that the field of experience we call world-body-mind is not truly apart from that presence.

In a world of things, you are no-thing. When the world of things is known to be only apparent, then you are actually every-thing, which really is “one thing”, one essence, APPEARING as everything.

In this totality even “one” has no meaning.

These experiences of tree, sound, body, thoughts are known objectively…yet what is that which is knowing? It has no description, no location, no shape…

Just look and be open…if It contains the body and the thoughts then what is it that is knowing? Start from the fact you are That…

You can only be that pure subjectivity, that undeniable presence awareness.

If you are able to objectify that pure subjectivity…then it becomes an object and you need to investigate further.

If ‘I am’ is not known in deep sleep, then how can it be said to be our true nature. If it’s not known then it is nothing more than a theory. Same with this ‘watcher’, there is no knowledge of this in deep sleep, it’s just an idea that comes and goes. There’s no watcher or knower when we are under anesthetic (just as well.) The watcher like the ‘I am’ is obviously an epiphenomenon of the organism.

Awareness is always present and so you can choose to notice it whenever you want to, there is nothing stopping you from doing this except your own concepts,such as who is going to do this?, or i have to be more clear etc.

Awareness is never going anywhere and so there is also no need to try to sustain it or get it. Just notice it whenever you fancy a bit of inspiration.

Also, awareness is always only aware of itself. The constant interpretations and fantasies never for a second change the fact that all there is is awareness. Prove to yourself that there could be such a thing other than awareness. For example, lets say we want to prove a tree has a separate existence because it is made of root, bark and leaves. But in fact, all of these descriptors are merely ideas and could only possibly point to other ideas. Where do these ideas appear? In awareness. What are they made of? Only awareness, of course. Greg Goode does an awesome investigation pertaining to this in his book…not sure if it’s online but you may be able to find it.

Lastly, this “recognition” you are waiting for is just another one of these damn ideas. This belief keeps appearing, you keep buying into it, and the story of not getting it continues. Like Gilbert says, a moment of clear seeing is all that is necessary

I am not these words.

Do you think the same could be said of Christ & Christianity?

”Therefore, efforts are made, ever fresh, to present the same core message, spoken through many different voices, so that a call to the intelligence that you are is made.”-
It is very sympathetic of you providing this.
Unlike spirituality and religion, this message remains static.
When bouncing around from teacher to teacher most of the focus was on ‘trying to find out if this person was for real or just trying to get my money’- this message is different. Unwavering.

The creator of this pseudo-religion, Robert Anton Wilson, speaks about e-prime, and the fallacy of speaking with words like “is”, “are” and “am”. So, instead of saying the grass IS green, we should instead say the grass APPEARS green to me. It’s crazy to think of all the conflict that comes about because of linguistic constructs. People believe their interpretations to be 100% true and hence these interpretations create what they believe is reality. Now:

From wikipedia:
“Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be.[1] In its widest definition, reality includes everything that is and has being, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.”

Now look at your own experience and tell me what actually exists. Surely the only thing you can say with certainty is that I AM. Everything else is simply a stream of never ending thoughts and ideas. This includes the recurring concept of me that claims to be having all the other thoughts and ideas. IT DOESN’T END. Concept upon concept upon concept, all appearing out of nowhere and dissapearing back into the same nowhere. Look and see. Is there any reality to this person you think you are? Please find proof and share with us if you can. Thank you.

UG suggested Jiddu had tasted of the sugar cube but had never ate it.He had some other choice things to say about his abstractions as well.

Still I love it all

There are no finders of truth. You are what you seek. Freedom is the realization that there is noone in bondage, other than idea, a thought, a belief. Most are caught in inattentiveness or unconscious living, thereby identifying with content and suffering. Not realizing what they actually are is never touched by the content of thought or mind. A simple exercise suggested by ‘K’ is being attentive to the inattentiveness. This flame of attention lights up what you are NOT……..then what is left, has to be the Real, the timeless – You….

P.S. – Kudos to UGC, outstanding production and the cello piece was exquisite