13. The Non-Duality Loop
Posted on 08.19.08 4:50PM under Podcast
Scott Kiloby explains that what we are cannot be found if we look to our minds for an answer, and he explains that even thoughts about non-duality can ‘appear’ to trap us in a mind loop. Music by Son De La Frontera and Argentina.Scott’s Website
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Posted by gilbert on 08.24.08 4:27 pm
OK. So, a fairly clean slate appears. Let’s see how things go from here on in.
Scott expresses some good points in the podcast - why not discuss those?
In ‘my experience’ not all that many read on further once the discussion turns to nit picking non duality jargon.
All of the Non Duality chat sites always turn into personality battles. Let’s not go there. I don’t even look at them for that reason.
So, no harm done. The crazy and bored ‘non-dualists’ (what a crazy term that is) seem to always pass over any direct pointing, pointing that could ACTUALLY stop them in their tracks. The mind (the me) isn’t interested in really allowing any reception of the direct message to take hold. It would mean the end of its apparent ’supremacy’. If this comment page degenerates into just crappy stuff, I am sure the administrator will demolish the lot. This is a free service to provide some excellent direct pointing via the podcast files. You are not asked to do or pay anything, except pay some close attention to the podcasts and what is expressed there - if they resonate, well and good, if not then by all means move on…..find what you need somewhere else.
Posted by Ralph on 08.24.08 8:25 pm
Gilbert, it took many, many years for you to get to this ‘direct pointing’ you speak of.
What makes you think that others can be stopped in their tracks in an instant ?
Just ‘SEE’… easily said than done.
Stop fooling yourself and get real. You may take what I say as a personality battle,
but it is not, I am just expressing how I see it and hope that others are free to do so as well.
I do pay close attention to the potcasts and I think they are good , some excellent, which keeps me coming back but I think it is also good practice for people to comment as they see it (with common sense of course). We can come across some great pointers this way.
All is included and nothing is excluded in ‘Awarenes’ including this crappy stuff that you speak of.
This is just my opinion. So, no harm done.
Posted by gilbert on 08.24.08 10:21 pm
Yes of course all is in the appearance of ‘things’. It is ALL contained in the KNOWING.
This pure knowing is the basis of all that appears and disappears. There is ONLY this INSTANT. SEEING is happening in THIS instant. Knowing is happening in THIS instant.
There is NO OTHER instant than THIS. IN this knowing it is known that the only thing that seemingly prevents this knowing from fully blossoming is the engagement with thoughts and belief in the ‘me’. I know that one can be stopped in their tracks because that is what happened here. What I truly am did not disappear but the ‘I’ disappeared.
Without that reference point ‘I’ or ‘me’ the knowing is known (not by someone) to be non-conceptual awareness. The Buddhist Dzogchen tradition says that The Great Perfection is Non-Conceptual Awareness. That is not some fancy saying or title for some bullshit story or about a ’someone becoming enlightened’ by doing some practice (time).
There is no point in pointing the finger at Gilbert and saying I need to stop fooling myself and get real. I am reality. If you have a problem with that - then why not recognize that your complaint is actually empty - but no it isn’t empty is it. There is a strong reference point there - ME - and That reference point is what all the arguments and opinions hang off. The sign post is a true one - it points directly at what you ARE. No one is asking you to believe anything or do anything. Just take a look for this ‘me’.
This investigation happened ‘here’ and there was discovered nothing but ideas, memories and a flourishing array of reference points arising. This was SEEN and KNOWN to NOT be what I am. If you want indirect pointing and stories about how to spend your life chasing enlightenment there are hundreds of such teachers out there.
They are also THAT appearing as those particular patterns of the expression of THAT - Diversity - but don’t you see from experience that their directions are sending the seeker (mind and belief) back into a mind realm, mind stuff and that is totally unnecessary.
There is no payback in any of this for me - because there is no me, as such. If I had a choice, do you think I would spend ‘my time’ on this - bearing in mind the stubbornness of most seekers? The constant racing off back into the mind expecting to find an answer there. As it happens, in the story of this life, I discovered one of the most direct teachers of Non Duality (Bob Adamson) and it ‘appears that I’ went out of my way to get him known to a wider audience. Frankly speaking, only a few have ever thanked me for that. I don’t have an issue with that because what Bob pointed me to was realized - not by ‘me’ but by the intelligence that I AM. You are that intelligence ALSO.
Whatever it takes to get you to SEE that - is totally valid - gratitude may or may not arise once the ‘truth’ is seen. In my case gratitude arises. In some ways I put up with a lot of crap from ‘people’ getting pissed off, because some tender belief is disturbed.
I am telling you that ALL of your beliefs are worthless and the sooner you see that, the better. Anyway, fire away but you are firing blanks at nothing - there is no one here to get offended. If you think you are defending Scott, you are dreaming. there is No Scott - ask him yourself.
Posted by Pendragon on 08.25.08 12:38 am
Thank you Gilbert, THAT was Very Clear>>
I said this yesterday…. wait…. STOP……. Was there even a yesterday???
Were there even any posts here from yesterday???
Did THAT Ever happen???
I AM that in which the question and apparent questioner appear.
Ahhh, Just THIS~~
Peace
Posted by Scott Kiloby on 08.25.08 8:34 am
All beliefs, knowledge, opinion, stories, concepts are ignorance. So what is left? See this emptiness within looking? The body is a reflection of it. The toes are. The desk is. The wall is. The thought “Gilbert” is. The thought “Scott” is. The building across the street is. The moon is. These are all objects, no better or worse than the grandest opinions held about enlightenment or nonduality or this or that tradition. All those opinions are objects, no better or worse than a pile of vomit. Dog poop has the same value as your most cherished opinion, ultimately. It is not that concepts are good or bad. They are just empty. There is nothing to hold onto in this. There is nothing being offered here.
This is not pointing to any of those objects or concepts. This is not pointing back to the concepts emptiness and oneness. This is that emptiness speaking. Just One. It is not speaking or pointing back to itself. There is no two there. It is just THAT speaking. It is just THAT reading this. It is just THAT. All of these things, concepts, objects, identities, yesterdays and tomorrows that appear and disappear in this emptiness that is looking, they are always coming and going. The mind gets hooked into them and misses completely the utter simplicity of the empty, nonconceptual nothingness that these words are pointing to. Once that is realized, the rest works itself out automatically and spontaneously. The message is so utterly simple. No bells and whistles. No gurus with fancy clothes and necklaces. No time needed. Just one glimpse of what is being pointed to here. Then the word Oneness stops being a philosophy appearing and disappearing in the mind (something to argue about). It is seen to be pointing to reality itself. This is when the words awareness and emptiness are no longer concepts. They are pointers pointing to something absolutely here and now. Not mind stuff. It takes sincerity to look in this way…
But to be really honest with what is being pointed to is to see that you are that which is writing these words. Only getting caught up in the temporary appearances makes it seem otherwise.
Posted by gilbert on 08.25.08 9:42 am
Yes - What I am needs no validation, no affirmation or denial. I AM completely and utterly beyond duality. Nothing touches what I AM.
THIS ‘I AM’ is ‘the Author’ of every word uttered in every place, throughout all of the apparent Eons. Each word uttered is empty. There is no secret meaning hidden away somewhere. There is NO Transmission - NO lineage. Each expression is totally valid - they appear and disappear. - It is all appearances. The Formless does not appear as form. The Form is formlessness. There is no two-ness anywhere. There is no time other than this presence right now. In THIS One without a second - recognition of THIS is instantly cognition - the veil of duality dissolves because it never was.
Not knowing ‘appears’ in this ‘Knowing’. Each statement contains its opposite - Knowing ‘appears’ in this ‘Not Knowing’. One spark, one ignition in immediate cognition and the whole realm of ignorance is burnt. It may not appear to be instantly consumed - it may appear to take time. Who is impatient?
There is no problem - there never was.
What is gained and what is lost? For ‘whom’ can there be any acquisition of knowledge?
This very Instant is deliverance. Know this and doubt disappears (forever).
There is only Knowing.
There is NO Duality in Non Duality.
Full Stop.
Posted by Tom on 08.25.08 9:56 am
I have come across this guy on Youtube. He is on to it.
Posted by Mark on 08.25.08 8:49 pm
Thank you both for the Presence behind the pointing, bringing clarity to That which is Never Not Clear>
Mark
Posted by Scott Kiloby on 08.26.08 12:21 am
What can be beautifully ordinary about this is the seeing that “Scott gets it or is onto it” or “Gilbert sees it or is onto it” or “I get it” or “I had it” or “I don’t get it” are all also just appearances on the screen. These ideas are no more important than the idea, “I have to go to the bathroom.” Within the dream, we give things importance that they do not have, all for the benefit of little “me’s” and “you’s.” But look more closely, what is it that is writing this. It is not ultimately Scott Kiloby. It is THAT itself. Scott Kiloby doesn’t own it. It is not his. There is no Scott. Nobody owns it or has it or doesn’t have it. There is nothing to own. No one to own it. There is only THAT and the appearances that arise from and fall back into that. What is the empty, spacious, quietness that is reading these words, and is seeing any and all judgments, agreements, and disagreements with what is being said? That is the true nature. It doesn’t mean that opinions, ideas, comments, words of appreciation, or beliefs are bad, or should be suppressed. Those things are also THIS. This is appearing as this post, as that opinion, as this agreement with words above, and that disagreement with words above.
What is writing this is what is reading this. Within the appearance of this, a dream of separation occurs. The mind gets hooked into the dream and its arguments, ideas, disagreements, praise, and opinions so totally that it misses the ordinary emptiness from which everything comes. We cannot point directly to this because every pointer arises from it and appears to have an importance that it does not really have. Its only importance it to point to its own source.
Posted by gilbert on 08.26.08 1:25 am
Basically ‘the word’ is only an appearance. The frustration that the so-called ’seeker’ has is due to believing in what the mind is translating the endless impressions of THIS into - words and concepts etc.
‘We’ believe in that stuff and think it is ‘the awareness’ or ‘the knowing’. ‘We’ may ‘fight to the bitter end’ to protect our mind’s translations, beliefs and opinions.
What is far too subtle for the translating mind is that pure knowing. Present always.
It is not ’something’ that needs to be acquired by some means or effort.
It is the very basis of what you already are. You can’t capture it because you are it.
It is the very (non) thing that registers every ’speck of dust’ - every motion - every gross and subtle impression. What recognizes this is not the ‘person’ - it is the intelligence itself.
There is only One intelligence - One without a second.
That ‘registration’ of every-thing is uninterrupted cognition - knowing presence.
What you are is THAT and nothing but THAT.
Posted by ralph on 08.26.08 4:17 am
Scott says ‘there is no Scott’ and he also says ‘Scott is full of crap !’.
Well , I agree and I like to take it a step further and declare that ‘We are all full of crap !’. I’m talking to all separate entities out there who believe they are separate from one another.
To the students of nonduality, I say that as long as you believe yourself to be a separate entity, then my friend ‘you are full of crap!’.
Now , the good news is that ‘you are NOT full of crap!’ when it is seen that there is no separation. All there is, is ‘Oneness’ or ‘the Self’ . You are THAT. This is where self recognizes itself and the crap is seen for what it is.
When the crap is cleared and the separaton is removed, then your true nature is exposed. and it is truly ‘beautiful !’. Welcome home.
Posted by Scott Kiloby on 08.26.08 4:36 am
It is truly beautiful…
Posted by gilbert on 08.26.08 9:55 am
Yes, you can pick up any lens to look through. The crappy lens - everything is seen to be crap.
The intellectual lens - everything is seen to be ideas all woven together. The mathematical lens - everything is seen to be numbers and symbols. The Biology lens - everything is seen to be bio-this and bio-that. The astronaut has a fairly unique view of the so-called individual’s ‘place’ in the scheme of things - from ‘deep space’. When we get on a plane and get a view from 30,000 feet - the perspective alters - for the mind. Where is the ‘drama’ you just left behind ‘down there’ on the ground?
Self-importance and the ‘chosen’ view we cling to, plus the held on beliefs, is a limitation placed over clear and present awareness.
Awareness is never truly obscured. It is the self-identified ’seer’ that ‘creates’ duality.
There is NO duality in Non Duality.
Yet, in the relativity, it appears that the beliefs we hang onto must be stirred up and examined and released - life itself provides the necessary stimulus for this.
What is needed is the facts - mere beliefs belong to a limited view.
Seeing is happening. There is no ‘form’ called ‘the self’ - there is no formlessness called ‘the self’.
The ’self’ is just a word, a name. What is it that knows? Can it be found and named? Everything appears in that knowing - all the words and all the names - the whole universe appears in that. Can you find a boundary to that knowing presence?
There is no self to recognize itself. That is just another subtle belief.
All there is is KNOWING. Everything is already known - it is all Clear and Obvious.
Not to ‘a someone’. It is reality - totality - all inclusive PRESENCE. Knowing IS.
Posted by ralph on 08.27.08 9:54 am
Awareness is not on the ego’s list of vacation spots. The ego will go to church or a
country club. It will never go to awareness. Just think about it.
Awareness is death to the ego. Why would it seek out its own demise?
- Vicki Woodyard
Posted by gilbert on 08.27.08 10:07 am
Yes it ‘appears that way’ - but it is just another story. It is all in the appearance of things - duality - there is no ego - never was, never will be. The so-called ego cannot have any power to ‘do or seek’ or avoid anything - except in the appearances of BELIEF.
Belief vanishes, just like the ego vanishes when you truly investigate them.
They are shadows - don’t even give them the slightest attention and they resolve themselves naturally. It is so simple - but so many teachers add stories to the simplicity - and so the mind has more and more to ‘play with’ - so avoiding this obviousness of being presence - this non-conceptual naked presence. Believing that there is an ego is the problem. There is no need to talk about the ego, as if it were something real. Cut it away.
Posted by Sergio on 08.27.08 10:13 am
Wow Gilbert.
That´s it !!!
i know what you are talking about. This is the ‘big business’ of the “masters”, I have visited various of them. One particular one for years.
They do not talk directly.
Posted by ralph on 08.27.08 12:12 pm
Here is another story:
the ego is real until it is seen as not real
the ego lives in the appearances.
the ego lives in the stories.
the ego is there until the body drops
Beliefs and ego and appearances go hand in hand.
…. just seeing that one is ‘not’ the ego is enough.
Gilbert, what you say is ‘also’ just another story.
there is only Oneness playing the game of twoness,
or as you say ‘there is no duality in non duality’.
Gilbert , at on time I believed I was a separate entity and now it is seen how
other so called apparent others are trapped in their beliefs and in their separateness.
……..these apparent so called seekers is who I am speaking to.
I think we are both saying the same thing but from two different perspectives.
Posted by gilbert on 08.27.08 3:05 pm
Does a reflection in the mirror have any independence? - can it ‘do’ anything?
It is an appearance only. The same equation applies to what you believe that you are. It is an appearance in mind. What substance does it have?
You say “At one time ‘I’ believed ‘I was a separate entity’.
What use is that story now? (That is) If you have TRULY ’seen through’ that time story - what benefit and for whom can such a story have? The mind is TIME.
Awareness is Timeless.
Can you truly choose which one you ARE?
The choice maker is an illusion. BEING IS.
SEEING is happening NOW and it does not happen at any other time.
What I say may be a story for ‘you’ but is THAT Being that you ARE is that a story?
For the mind it can only be a story and believing in what the mind translates THIS Being-ness into is where the problem lies. You (appear to) personalize everything and the doubts that arise are added to with more imaginary evidence to support your case - ‘A story’ is held onto rather than being seen through and discarded.
The only way out of the mirage of mind is FULL STOP. Drop the concepts and SEE what is left. Naked Being is presence.
What you are is INTELLIGENCE - It is the SEEING - It is the Knowing.
Why not stay AS that and let the mind play itself out WITHOUT giving it any belief? THIS is totally available to everyone - yet so few even attempt to cut through that mind stuff. Why? Isn’t it because at the core of all that stuff there is a ‘me’ and that ’seemingly’ cannot afford to be seen through - it appears to be self-protective.
When an impulse arises to be totally open to see what IS - with a genuine ’self-less’ interest happening - an interest to really SEE what is going on - then the old ideas are naturally put aside and let go of.
The intellect will just go on and on finding divisions and problems with any expression - Just recognize that it is ONE Intelligence expressing itself AS everything - every expression is valid - but NOT as it appears (as it is believed to be). There is no ’self’ that realizes itself.
There is only One (not even One) and THAT is realizing ‘itself’ as the ALL.
If you insist on being ’someone’ separate - that ’someone’ will be crushed - time destroys everything - yet you are NOT that time bound entity. The mind is dualistic - understanding is in BEING. The intellectual understanding is only a fragmentary reflection and it is transitory - it comes and goes. Do you truly come and go?
Of course not. Don’t ignore THAT which IS.
Now, I notice I did not acknowledge someone’s ‘good works’ and that my comments may appear to upset or offend someone’s ‘helpful’ advice to ‘others’. Notice that if there is something there that is offended - it can only be a ‘me’. Root it out and get a good look at it - if you dare.
There is no point in pretending to oneself or to others about being wise or being an enlightened being. That is dualistic nonsense - ping-pong mind stuff.
Reality is not compassionate towards the ‘appearances’. There is no need to be so - but it can appear that way, just like it appears as every possibility.
If you believe that you have a choice, then BE the real - it is effortless to be what you ARE.
Pretending to be ’someone’ is exhausting and pretending to be someone special is doubly so.
No offense intended - yet all expressions are valid - all the better if they unearth some old habitual beliefs.
Posted by ralph on 08.27.08 6:40 pm
Pretending to be ‘no one’ is also exhausting.
No offense intended. Just playing along.
Posted by Barney on 08.27.08 6:45 pm
Gilbert, you may have addressed this is an earlier post — but, what about the belief that we’re the physical body?
How to get around that one — sure secondhand physicists’ studies assure us of our spacious atomic makeup; yet guns, disease and unscrupulous anvils falling from buildings still hurt.
It seems the body’s worth protecting, even though we’re probably already convinced it’s going away at some point…
Is there a fundamental difference between believing you’re the thought ego, versus believing you’re the physical body?
Not sure if these questions make sense…
Posted by gilbert on 08.27.08 7:40 pm
All appears in SEEING.
The body is ‘my body’ - yes? The computer is ‘my computer’ - yes?
Where did you get the computer? Where did you get the body?
The body is awareness appearing as an instrument of cognition and the senses etc.
It is the first pattern of the manifestation that you know.
Space is the first ‘thing’ you see. Follow the seeing back behind the eyes - and clear and empty space is obvious. Now, look into that space. Is it divided into parts? Is there any ‘owner’ of the body there? See that the body appears in that space-like awareness.
You will not be able to work this out with the mind. Direct cognition is the only ‘thing’ that will convince you - and it will be seen that that cognition, that ’space-like awareness’, is what you are. That is the ground upon which all the appearances appear - including all the mentation about this and that - the story appears right there. How is any of it known?
It is appearing in the knowing. The mind translates from ‘acquired mind’ and labels everything (except that space-like awareness). The ‘knower’ is believed in as being what I am. But that is also an appearance - whether I am a so-called guru or an ordinary being. The mind is drawn naturally towards differentiation, ‘things’, ‘objects’ and the ’subject’ is never examined. ‘Who’ owns the body? The subject and the object are both appearances and the ‘tension’ between these apparent ‘things’ ‘creates’ duality - in the mind. You will not find any ‘thing’ called ‘mind’ or ’self’.
Sure, if I stick a pin in your bum, you will jump and shout “Hey, what are you doing?”
What we are talking about is so far beyond the limits of being the body or the mind content. What is being pointed out is something that has eluded many of the ‘great thinkers’ throughout the ‘centuries’. It, THIS, is not something new - it is simply something so subtle it lies beyond the grasp of the mind.
It is pure being. It is what you are. THAT which cannot be negated.
If you cannot find a way to simply rest in that being-ness - for just a few moments - to realize your true nature - then what can anyone ‘do’ to help you?
I don’t know how many times these simple things have been pointed out - and still these same old doubts and questions arise from so many places.
It is so simple and so immediately available. Are you not interested to find out what you truly are?
The ‘hook’ of believing that I am the body is about name and form (nama rupa).
So many accounts have been spoken about - The ‘master’, the one who knows without a doubt, says “You are not the body nor the mind” - Those ‘who know’ are not playing mind games when they express such direct pointing.
So many pass over that ‘pointer’ or take offense and throw it back with some sort of objection. The body dies, we all know that - if you do not realize your true nature then what are you doing here? Why are you HERE?
To realize your true nature is the only purpose there is. This is not some virtual reality computer game you find yourself in. Watch what the mind is up to - question your beliefs - get to the core of it all.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is celebrated as a ‘great teacher’ by many. “I am That”, the book, is a best seller - it sits upon thousands of bookshelves across the globe.
How many have truly ‘heard’ what he so patiently expounded day after day? He, like his own guru, before him, was so simple and direct with the message - yet it expressed itself in so many wonderful ways. Bob Adamson is the same - yet few ever really ‘hear’ what is being ‘pointed at’ - Why? Mostly because of pre-conceived ideas about ‘HOW “THIS” should APPEAR to BE’. The word “Enlightenment” is one of the main culprits. It keeps monks in bondage for a lifetime (or thousands of life times in their own minds). It is ALL conceptual notions and nothing more than that.
If you cannot find a genuine impulse in yourself to do this simple investigation - to find out if this ‘me’ has any substance at all? - Then what can be done for you? I am not being rude at all. It is just directness. Do you have any of your famous ‘time’ to waste on dualistic arguments? Cut to the chase right now. Take a good look for that self-center. Reference points will arise from habitual notions - just see them and drop them - keep looking until that ’space-like awareness’ is clear of doubts and questions.
Drop the concept of being a ’seer’ and simply be the SEEING. Everything is CONTAINED in THAT Seeing. There is no seer and no object seen - no subject and no object. There is NO Duality in NON DUALITY.
Now………..watch the mind…..see whatever arises from such direct pointing.
See what it is that does not want to let go of ‘old stuff’. No need to pretend anything - Just be the seeing.
As the ancient text says: “When the eye is one - the body is full of light”.
It is ALL Light - the WHOLE manifestation is LIGHT. The light by which you SEE and KNOW is the very same LIGHT that appears as everything. NO Separation.
It may be of interest to you that I have never implied that I am enlightened. I have nothing to offer anyone. All that can be ‘done’ is to ‘point’ at what is true.
YOU must SEE what it is that seemingly prevents you from KNOWING what is true.
The TRUE is not hidden from you. It is what you ARE. Stop ignoring it. There is NO Answer in the MIND. BEING is LIGHT. BEING is Knowing. Simply BE.
Posted by Scott Kiloby on 08.28.08 1:32 am
…So the words Oneness, emptiness, awareness, advaita are all just empty images arising and falling.
Before they arise, while they are seemingly there, and after they arise, there is still just ‘This’. This presence. This life. It has no opinion. It doesn’t give a rat’s ass about words like oneness or nonduality. What Ralph said strikes true, it’s exhausting holding onto “no self.” There is no one to hold onto it. Nothing to hold onto. Just another empty image coming and going. What is looking at that coming and going is total relaxation and nothingness. Now those words are gone…and there is just “this” which is what there always is.
Posted by gilbert on 08.28.08 12:30 pm
What Ralph says most certainly does not strike as true here. It is a ‘point of view’ from a held belief. A partial view from mind - not from being.
Being what you are is effortless presence. Expressing what is direct and true does not include making contradictory statements. If you see that all words are empty, how can you say that there is exhaustion from holding onto a belief that there is ‘no self’. It is crazy talk. But common in the so-called ‘non duality circles’. The direct and immediate message contains no support for such notions. It is radically non-supportive of any notions of being ’someone with a problem’. All conceptual notions that support such ideas simply keep the mind engaged in a drama that is completely unnecessary.
At the beginning of the ‘class’ the blackboard is clean - at the end of the class, the blackboard is clean - what was expressed there is wiped away - ‘who’ has learned anything?
Don’t lose your sense of humor dear ’seekers of truth’. The frustration of trying to grasp ‘Non Duality’ with concepts is completely pointless but ‘you doubt that fact’.
When the mind is not - understanding is totally and obviously present - yet for the ‘conceptualized one’ who ‘resides’ all bound up in the mind, true understanding remains a paradoxical mystery. There is NO answer in the mind.
“I rest my case your honor”. Case dismissed.
Posted by Ralph on 08.28.08 4:49 pm
Sorry, “Hung jury”.
It appears that Gilbert’s way is to DISMISS ‘everything’ that is spoken here because it is all coming from the ‘mind’ but what he overlooks is that ALL (including the mind stuff) IS included in this ‘nothingness’ that he is supposedly speaking from .
Appearances is part of what is (don’t fool yourself here). All is included and nothing is excluded in Awareness.
No matter who is doing the speaking, it is always from someone’s point of view (incliuding Gilberts), so the words used will always miss the mark and at best can be used as just pointers.
This is not a personal attack, just how it is seen from over here. But I am sure that we both agree that it is impossible to describe the indescribable. It must be seen. No one can bring it to you.
Posted by gilbert on 08.28.08 6:40 pm
Whatever it takes to shake the old views loose is valid.
You speak a lot about fooling yourself. Everything is valid in the appearance but not how it appears to be. The knowing that cannot be negated is not a knowing of this or that.
It is unadorned knowing. This is a mystery for the mind. The only knowing that there is, is not ‘of the mind’. Now my guess is that you have no idea what that means. If you could only follow the guidelines I outlined in an earlier comment - it may just lose its mysterious meaning for ‘you’. I have no interest in playing guru games. All I am ‘doing’ is pointing out what has most clearly ‘opened up’ here - the clear and obvious nature of everything.
There is not one single doubt in the clear view. The same view is available to anyone at all.
The cost? Give up the ‘old views and ideas’ - SEE everything fresh and new in THIS moment. “There is no future, there is no past, there is nothing but today (right now) - for yesterday’s tomorrow is tomorrow’s yesterday” (from a song by Wild Turkey, a 70’s rock band). There is no person - so what is all this talk about “not a personal attack”. I had a dog called Ralph once upon a time - he could say his own name - Ralph ralph. “Down boy”.
It is all a bit of a laugh really.
Posted by Ralph on 08.28.08 7:51 pm
Gilbert, all you do is say all the right words but unfortunately it just comes across as an intellectual understanding only. There is no aliveness coming from your words. It just comes across as empty and dead. if this is what you are pointing to , then I want no part of it. I thank you for your posts but it just does not resonate over here.
Hmm….as I write this, a thought just appeared. What you say really pisses off the ego I thought was seen through as not who I am… The thought that just arose was “then why does it piss me off so much ?” I see this now. If what you are saying is intended to destroy the ego self that you sense is still there in me then you have done your job. If not then you are just being an ‘asshole.’ I guess what pissed me off was your style of how you are getting the message across but something now tells me otherwise. I guess my question is where are you coming from ? Can you please shed some more light on this.
Posted by gilbert on 08.29.08 12:54 am
There is no one coming from anywhere. Everything is THAT appearing as this and that.
Thinking is not understanding. They are not your thoughts. Thoughts simply appear and disappear. The habit is to claim them as ‘mine’ and then the whole story is added…..then that identified ’state of mind’ gets pissed off due to it being challenged. You express ‘your’ opinions and don’t see all the ‘hooks’ that ‘you’ have caught your ‘imaginary self’ on.
There are many who do resonate with the expressions coming from ‘here’. Look at that deadness you speak of and see that the aliveness that cognizes that deadness is what is being pointing at. It is not about ME…..neither your ME nor any other ME. It is about this living cognition that cannot be negated. Whatever it takes to uncover that is totally valid.
The only ‘thing’ that ‘covers it’ is habitual beliefs. ‘Who’ is this Ralph chap? Do ‘you’ know? It is known here that he is nothing but thoughts, a long standing habit. It may appear as a confronting challenge - it is nothing but a gift, one that is not wanted by the identified ’state of belief’ in a ‘Me’.
The intellect has NO understanding. The intellectual understanding you speak of is just another belief, another story that the mind indulges in - it can be seen to be just that - but it requires a genuine impulse to know what is really going on. Staying with the thoughts and believing them is not the way to go. There is NO answer in the mind. Have you really recognized the essential truth of that pointer? Why do you keep going back into the mind and finding nothing but more and more arguments about something that cannot be argued about - your OWN BEING is all that is being ‘pointed’ at. ‘Who’ has a problem with that?
Is there a ‘me’ there that beats the heart? A ‘me’ that grows the hair? A ‘me’ that thinks a thought? Every thought that appears, appears spontaneously out of this living emptiness. Trace it all back……to emptiness…..that emptiness is so obvious. The whole Universe moves upon that same emptiness and the axis of this planet is made of that same emptiness. The axis of every heavenly body moves upon that same emptiness - ask a physics lecturer.
If you look for the axis of a wheel or a planet you will find nothing but a movement around ‘empty space’……the sense of ‘I’ is also appearing on that SAME emptiness. Recognizing that is enough to realize one’s true nature.
There is no offense intended - yet if it is taken, then surely it is an opportunity to recognize that ‘me’ fixation. It is all valid in the appearance of ‘things’. The Essence of what you are is NEVER touched by anything at all. That is innately known - not by any ‘entity’ it is known by the only knowing that there is. AND THAT is what you ARE. All the right words or all the wrong words cannot change that Essential Being that you are.
Stop ignoring it - that is basically all I am pointing at.
Personalizing everything is the problem - keep doing it if you must but don’t come complaining to ‘me’ that you are still seeking and you can’t find a way out of the mind. The seeking mode is still obviously active there - it is unnecessary - but it ‘appears’ that you must recognize that yourself - and yet that statement is also dualistic. There is ONLY Knowing happening. There is no one that needs to recognize itself. There is truly NO Knower. You won’t hear about this on the seven o’clock News.
The common view of ‘mankind’ is all about phenomena, worldy ‘things’. What we are talking about is indescribable - the essence of what I am, what you are. No description can ever be adequate. All descriptions are simply words and diagrams, symbols and ideas - they all ‘appear’ IN that BEING-NESS.
They all also disappear in THIS BEING-NESS. Yet what you ARE remains, no matter what appears and disappears. That FACT is only elusive for the mind.
In BEING it is obvious - not obvious for a ’someone’. We insist on being ’someone’ and then complain about everything - even about the words of one who encourages the excavation of pure BEING. Are you with me here or have you already gone off in the reactions of habitual belief and mind stuff? I am here, awake and free from the cumbersome belief in ‘ME’. Take this opportunity to explore things if you wish. Or ignore it and go on with your struggle.
Compassion may appear in many forms - even as one who gets under your skin. I do not pander to ’seekers’ beliefs and no one pays me big fees to attend some fancy lectures or weekend workshops etc. Being direct and immediate is the only way - it is not popular though. Most want to add security to their spiritual self-image and that is not going to be fed here. Supporting belief in time and methods, practices and all the rubbish that gurus perpetuate is also not going to happen here. It is known to be a complete waste of energy (as if there could ever be a waste of energy - but you know what I mean).
Posted by No Thing on 08.29.08 2:06 am
The sound of gentle waves appear
Is that a wave?
Only the mind knows it as such
The body appears
Where is the idea of “body”?
Only the mind thinks of it as such
The mind has a thought
What is a thought?
Only the mind calls it such
Is the mind seeing the mind?
What is there to see?
Can the mind “see” anything”?
What calls mind, “mind”, as such?
Knowingness is beyond “mind”
The clear and formless such-ness
Can mind be free of this?
Can mind appear on this?
Does “this” have words to descibe?
Or do words appear “in this”?
How do I “get to” this understanding?
The sound of gentle waves appear!
Posted by Ralph on 08.29.08 6:14 am
Gilbert, thanks for your feedback. I truly do appreciate it.
What stood out in your last post was:
“Compassion may appear in many forms - even as one who gets under your skin”.
This is what appeared to be lacking in your speaking. It is now seen otherwise.
This reminds me of a quote I read somewhere.
“The truth shall set you free but first it will piss you off”.
Let me sit with this for awhile.
Posted by gilbert on 08.29.08 1:08 pm
The key is simple: BE this Immediacy. It is the SEEING - the KNOWING.
The story of ‘me’ is in ‘time’ - a seeming process in mind - a belief - seemingly useful until it brings friction and stories about incompleteness.
So the search starts - a search for what I truly am - but it is a search in ‘virtual reality’, a seeming ’stepping away’ from BEING - a step made by a conceptual construct (’me’) in a ‘mind made’ landscape. The journey to ‘right here right now’ is an impossibility. ‘Becoming’ can never BE or become THIS being.
Being caught up in that ’stuff’ ‘we’ don’t realize that the courage to BE what I AM, what you ARE, is totally available because it IS.
To pretend to be what you are not is totally vulnerable because it is NOT.
The false cannot stand the gaze of pure seeing. It dissolves in front of (within) this SEEING. This seeing is the ONLY seeing that is happening.
In SEEING the false disappear - so one knows with absolute conviction that I am not that which comes and goes. I remain - no matter what ‘happens’.
Mind is time - Awareness is timeless.
Even compassion is an appearance - an expression of THAT - THAT which appears as everything. This is one way of interpreting the meaning of the words “I am THAT”.
Everything is included in the SEEING. It is all empty - not as ‘dead things’ - It is all LIFE - immediate living-ness. The mind translates the immediate impressions of this LIFE in words, concepts, images - retains them as memories. Memory is useful if it serves but when it dominates it is a story in the mind, one that clouds over this pure seeing. Yet clear awareness shines like the sun beyond all manner of obscuration. This is verifiable by recognizing the fact that the obscuring factors are seen or known in the immediacy. So the question begs to be asked: Where are you truly SEEING from? it is not from within the limits of the mind.
Posted by V. on 08.30.08 11:58 pm
What is Self-Aware?
Posted by gilbert on 08.31.08 12:29 am
One without a second. There is no duality in Non Duality.
Awareness IS. That is all there IS.
In that awareness concepts of a ’self’ appear.
The awareness is timelessly present. The concepts all come and go.
‘Who’ is asking the question? ‘Who’ wants to know?
There is no answer in the mind.
In what I call ‘the clear space of knowing’ there is no duality - no question and no answer.
The essential ‘answer’ to ‘your question’ is at the core of your being - that immediate, un-mediated cognizing - that cannot be negated.
Posted by V. on 08.31.08 12:32 am
Thank you, you give great Shaktipat!
Posted by gilbert on 08.31.08 12:50 am
No, I give nothing. There is no transmission necessary - but it does appear that one needs to be pointed back away from the mind content, back into that clear space of knowing. Yet at the core of it all, and permeated throughout everything you see, the essence of it all is knowing and knowing is all that there IS.
What you call ’shaktipat’ is just the resonance of ‘being-knowing’, and that bubbles to the surface released from those seeming limitations of belief, released simply by recognizing what you ARE. - Nameste.
Posted by Pendragon on 09.04.08 1:24 pm
And Now there is Just THIS~~
Thank you all for not teaching me Any Thing~ Really~
PD
Posted by Scott Kiloby on 09.06.08 8:48 am
Posted by Ralph on 09.06.08 10:57 am
To ‘undo’ what we have learned takes effort.
The teaching here is to teach you that teaching is not necessary.
isn’t it wonderful that paradox and confusion are the guards to the gateless gate.
And Now there is just THIS~~
Posted by No Thing on 09.06.08 11:34 am
*effort* is for the mind.
*effort* requires a *someone* to make an effort
*someone* is a belief, still mind, still thought
without thought, is there someone who needs to make an effort?
without thought, is there some *thing* to attain with effort?
being-seeing-knowing shines through all beliefs
including the belief that it takes effort
including the belief that there is someone who can make an effort
being-seeing-knowing, timeless-choiceless awareness already is - watching the thoughts of effort and the seeker who needs to make it
that presence is none other than the seeking thought, the thought of effort
that presence is paradox, that presence is confusion, that presence is clarity and freedom
that presence is the guard *and* the gate
that presence is necessary for the *student and teacher* to appear
always-already, unborn, not created, before time and space
being-seeing-knowing prior to and necessary for the assertion of effort to even appear
Posted by Ralph on 09.06.08 12:06 pm
Yes, the ‘effort’ is done by the person who still believes he is a separate entity.
Posted by No Thing on 09.06.08 2:40 pm
nothing is done
nothing is happening
no person exists except as a concept
no effort exists except as a concept
the concept is created in thought (imagination)
thought doesn’t exist
thought has no substance or independent nature
apart from presence that you are
where is the person who does this?
where is the person who believes this?
are you not knowing now?
imagination says - the *effort* is done by a *person* who still believes
running after imagination, we forget *in what* imagination appears
being-seeing-knowing is present before, during and after
ever-present, never-changing
when have you ever left this?
Posted by Ralph on 09.06.08 5:41 pm
I love it when ’some’ thing speaks about ‘no’ thing.
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.07.08 2:50 pm
Gilbert, how to “be”? being already is………
Posted by gilbert on 09.07.08 3:05 pm
Indeed. There is no HOW to be - no question about HOW to be - there is only BEING.
The concepts about being are not the being. The concept about awareness is not awareness - well they are awareness but they are awareness appearing as something within awareness, a form, a concept. It is ALL awareness appearing as this and that.
‘Who’ has a problem? No one - and yet millions of ‘people’ believe that they have a problem. Do not be concerned with ‘them’. Start from the only fact you are certain of - the fact of your own being. Everything reveals itself in THAT. There are no separate ‘things’. We believe we are a ‘thing’ and that is the ‘hook’ upon which the whole drama hangs - the ‘me’, the hook. Straighten that hook and the drama falls off. It is all in appearance only, even the hook.
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.07.08 3:19 pm
“I” arises as a thought in what is …and the story gains momentum; the one who watches this story has no shape or form.
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.07.08 3:23 pm
The “one” who appears to want confirmation of this understanding is also a thought.
Posted by gilbert on 09.07.08 4:52 pm
There is no duality in Non Duality.
There is only one seeing happening.
There is only one knowing happening.
There is no entity in THAT ‘happening’.
Forms ARE formlessness - appearances only.
They ALL appear within the SEEING-KNOWING.
The ‘idea’ of ‘me’ is actually formlessness appearing as a ‘thing’.
The ‘me’ gathers ‘drama’ via attachment to other ideas and so the ’story of me’ builds a ‘prison’ that cannot be escaped from - the prison is ephemeral, just like the character.
Belief is nothing but energy. Belief dissolves when investigated. Once seen through, how can it be believed in again? Simple presence - seeing - knowing - the pure functions of being are not bound by anything. The fictional character loses its apparent form once belief stops flowing into it. What emerges is what was always present - clear and present awareness - totally clear of entity, color, shape and form. This is why it appears so impossible for the ’seeker’ - the seeker is looking for some ‘thing’ to add to its own ‘thing-ness’ and in that business it overlooks the clear and obvious - its own true nature - no thing-ness.
What can be done? Nothing much - just point it out. Once in a blue moon ’someone’ recognizes IT. - In the mean time, all kinds of crap flies back and forth. Accusations are throw this way and ‘people’ get pissed off. But it is already too late - It is no longer an issue here - it has been exposed completely. Why it seems that I give a damn is a mystery to me. I would rather be sailing. The majority of ’seekers’ appear to be wankers but it is not true. The majority of vocal seekers, the ones who throw around shallow arguments - they are wankers. Non Dual Jargon must be one of the most boring forms of communication that there is - rife in the ‘Non Dual Hotspots’, in California, for instance. They have all been tricked into believing in a very special possiblility - ‘deliverance’ (for whom?) It is a very, very profitable business and all the swanky teachers all have several accountants. I am not pointing the finger here at anyone in particular, so don’t go getting all up in arms over a few words.
Apart from that, these comment pages have proven to be of some value, as I see it. It can however turn to utter crap when petty minded souls start writing poetry or ‘having a go’ just to flaunt their ‘graffiti’ ego.
Basically it is All THAT appearing as this and that - it is ALL valid - but not how you think it is or HOW it appears to be. Clear Conscious BEING is this IMMEDIATE instant - before a thought has a chance to creep onto ‘the set’. There is nothing you can say about it - it is wordless presence and there is NO problem in it. Mind is time and that is where the problems are - yet they all resolve themselves - if only in deep sleep.
Posted by tomvds on 09.07.08 9:47 pm
funny introduction of the podcast: “Are we there yet?”
the choice of music is as usual exquisite !
Posted by gilbert on 09.07.08 11:17 pm
Actually for a podcast that only started just a few months ago, it is doing alright me thinks. Many creative aspects could be added to it but there is no rush. It is all FREE….that is a bonus for sure. Access for everyone and anyone….so long as they can get to a computer etc. Enjoy.
Posted by Ralph on 09.08.08 7:45 am
Everytime I hear this song, it reminds me of my true nature, who I truly am.
This is a beautiful nonduality (Advaita) song. Don’t you think ?
“Watching the Wheels”
People say Im crazy doing what Im doing
Well they give me all kinds of warnings to save me from ruin
When I say that Im o.k. well they look at me kind of strange
Surely youre not happy now you no longer play the game
People say Im lazy dreaming my life away
Well they give me all kinds of advice designed to enlighten me
When I tell them that Im doing fine watching shadows on the wall
Dont you miss the big time boy youre no longer on the ball
Im just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go
Ah, people asking questions lost in confusion
Well I tell them theres no problem, only solutions
Well they shake their heads and they look at me as if Ive lost my mind
I tell them theres no hurry
Im just sitting here doing time
Im just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go
I just had to let it go
I just had to let it go
- John Lennon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z-YcK3UTI0&feature=related
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.08.08 8:08 am
Gilbert, When was the “me” born? What was prior to it? It appears that the “me” is born from moment to moment; totally dependent on memory; but the “one” in which it is born in is always as it is….take the memory away and what remains is only presence…..
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.08.08 8:12 am
The one who seeks freedom is an idea; the one who experiences freedom is an idea; freedom itself is an idea…one idea is going to attain another idea.
Posted by gilbert on 09.08.08 4:57 pm
The ‘me’ is only a thought. Having no being at all, how can we say that it is born?
Freedom is not an experience. The idea of freedom is an idea. The ‘me’ is an idea. An idea cannot experience anything so to say that the one who experiences freedom is an idea is just a misunderstanding. All there is is experiencing - EXPERIENCING - whether an idea of being someone is present or not does not alter this unmediated experiencing. All content comes and goes. What you truly are - does that come and go? Of course not - but can you say what it is? It remains indefinable and beyond the realm of words. Just because we can label something does not mean we understand it. We label awareness as awareness or some other name - often we believe we understand what it is - but it is just another word.
There is nothing prior to anything because there is NO time. All there is is THIS moment.
Even calling it a moment implies time. There is NO time. Knowing that alone is enough to dissolve all problems.
Posted by kale on 09.09.08 9:45 pm
Gilbert, somehow it is sensed that this message needs to be heard over and over again for it to really hit home. At certain times there’s apparent clarity (supposedly due to lack of mind content bubbling up); and there are times when the “me” is riding the wave again. Even investigation into its nature seems impossible……
Posted by gilbert on 09.09.08 10:18 pm
At such times, how do you know that the me is riding the wave again? At other times, how do you know that there is clarity? Isn’t KNOWING the common factor? The habit of belief in the me is a habit and it can be broken - a habit can be broken. Question it all. Withhold belief in the me and see what happens to that me. You are the knowing and nothing but that knowing. It is formless. The clarity you speak of is that formless knowing - that is its nature. Total Clarity is Total formlessness. No one ever ‘became’ enlightened.
Enlightenment is the nature of the WHOLE. The light of SEEING is THAT enlightenment.
SEEING is happening - not to a ‘me’ or a ‘person’. It includes everything - this is very obvious even in what we could call ordinary seeing - everything appears in the seeing - what appears outside of seeing? You can only postulate some imaginary thing that could appear outside of seeing - as soon as you imagine it - it is an appearance in the seeing-knowing. Catch 22.
There is no one to do the investigation. It is intelligence in action.
The essence of what we are calling ‘the investigation’ is SEEING.
Some teachers like Tony Parsons make a fuss about ‘the investigation’ that we are speaking of, saying that it is just more seeking or some such thing. I could pick on a whole pile of his concepts and pull them apart and say that they are incorrect etc. Unconditional love for instance. Tony has helped many, it would seem. Many other teachers are more full of crap than anything about what is true. I am not interested in dissecting gurus and their words. (Please refrain from taking this line of argument)
If you (anyone) cannot rest in this open nature of clear and present awareness, then investigate what it is that stops you. It is surely belief. And a belief cannot stand up to clear seeing - the investigation. Its unfounded nature reveals itself just by looking at it.
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.10.08 9:05 am
Gilbert, i notice that you like to lash out at the so called “gurus” at every opportunity available (and there’s nothing wrong with that); but truly, how to recognize a “teacher”, if you know what I mean? Any pointers…
Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 09.10.08 5:28 pm
No need to walk on egg shells around Gilbert. Why not say how you feel? Why create a character named Gilbert, label his actions (lashing out at gurus), and then jump into non-duality speak midstream by saying that ‘nothing is wrong with it’ just to stay in his favor? Having angst about spending lots of time and money on gurus in the past and being continually upset about it would not be a desirable trait to have in my book — there, I said it for you. If we’re going to personify someone and describe their actions with a label, why stop there? Why not put a value judgement on it as well? This is where some folks will get continually caught up. This isn’t a halfway understanding — I can label the person and the event (someone separate who dislikes gurus, or someone separate who terrorizes in the Middle East) — then take that label and look in the non-duality handbook that says “everything is okay; there’s no right or wrong”. Take it all the way or none of the way– Yes, Everything is okay, but there’s also no separate person who is slamming gurus, and there is no separate person named Gilbert — those are all labels. This is about the seeing/knowing that never divides and never changes–that needs no confirmation and needs no label to exist. If it so happens that a label arises about a so-called separate thing or being–don’t make the mistake of assuming that the separate thing and those labelled actions have an independent nature and can be separated and defined based on that pseudo reality–and then claiming that what happens in your pseudo reality is all okay. There’s no separate character doing anything–period.
Posted by gilbert on 09.10.08 5:58 pm
How to recognize a ‘true teacher’? The resonance that arises in the immediacy of contact with any direct pointing (from any apparent source) that is the deciding factor. Stick with that resonance in being. It may be called a growth in being but that is just a description. If the contact or words only stimulate imagination and spiritual dreams of a ‘future deliverance’ etc - then it is not a true pointing. Popular teachings are just fancy concepts and they keep seekers bound year after year - because it is all about time - it is NOT the immediate liberation from concepts, especially the ’self’ concept. True pointing is only about THIS immediacy - this non conceptual awareness - NOW - its message cuts away all concepts, especially concepts about any ‘time’ - other than THIS presence NOW.
Nothing is hidden in time or anywhere else. All there is is THIS presence. Everything appears and is contained in THIS SEEING NOW. That is the key. If a few words can dislodge an old habit or belief well and good. Yet recognize that the seeing remains untouched. The whole drama of all the so-called eons of ‘time’ have never touched or altered the pure nature of seeing - it never blinks or misses anything - it is all contained within its infinite scope. There is no time, no process - you have always been THAT ‘pure knowing’ irrespective of how it may look in the appearances of ‘things’. Phenomena, ‘things’ do not appear with a label attached to them. We add the labels from past memory. The sky does not have the word SKY pinned to it anywhere. Are any labels stuck to anything, anywhere? Either in the ‘head’ or ‘out there’? Is that most intimate ’space of knowing’ (that you are) is that full of words or is it clear and empty? Contemplate these things. If these pointers (over recent days here) are truly absorbed and recognized for what they are, then it is enough to ‘do the job’. There is no misleading information happening here. What benefit would there be in that - for whom?
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.11.08 5:11 am
Thanks a lot Gilbert; there’s always been a resonance with your pointing “here”; however, the clarity that arises seems to “appear to have disappeared” every now and then. For “who”? The false sense of the personal. When looked at closely, even the false sense of personal is not found; there’s only the looking…thanks, Gilbert.
Kimo / Jim, pardon me, but i have no idea what you’re trying to convey…Gilbert’s pointing somehow hits the nail spot on most of the times; at other times, when confusion seems to arise, it is sensed that message needs to be heard over and over again until there’s no place to hide….
Posted by David on 09.11.08 2:30 pm
Hi Dorothy. I came to Randall with a very similar statement/question to what you are saying to Gilbert. Clarity or confusion. Randall said that both clarity and confusion appear IN or ON Awareness. Thank you Randall and Gilbert.
Posted by gilbert on 09.11.08 9:31 pm
Once you are pulled out of the belief in what the mind is telling you - once the open view is known to be incontestable, you can pull ‘others’ out of it. Many gurus and teachers prematurely set themselves up as saviors and they get dragged back into beliefs themselves, imagining that THEY are helping everyone. One only needs to look at the concepts that they express to know that they are caught in the web of spiritual concepts.
History shows us how these gurus and teachers almost always become the opposite of what they pretend to be. My advise to anyone is do not believe in anyone, especially someone who grandstands and places themselves above you. Hear what they have to say but don’t believe it. It is the resonance of the message that counts - not the individual messenger - although his manner and delivery will convey something for sure. The clearest teachers are extremely ordinary beings. They do not push their message onto anyone. They do not tour the world and ask for extraordinary fees to attend their talks. They do not tell fancy stories about their personal enlightenment. ANYONE who pushes their personal achievement as something to copy is a fraud. There are no two ways about it. I could name several popular teachers who are very obviously just a sham - yet that is simply the way the ONE expresses itself. The fact is these characters are more like prison wardens than a savior.
Their followers have no idea of the game they are being drawn into. When I express these points many readers squirm and shudder and they may imagine that ‘I have a problem’ about it all. NO, I don’t. I am simply pointing out that the message is simple - far more simple than ‘what you think’. It may appear to some others that I have what everyone is looking for - I don’t expect anyone to pay my bills or rent. There is no compromise happening here. What I am saying is that you are REALITY. It is ONE without a second. Knowing that is natural. If you cannot see the truth of this, then SEE what it is that seemingly stops you from KNOWING that.
Posted by susana on 09.13.08 9:29 pm
Thanking you for the pointers.
Especially about the impossibility of stopping thought.
Thanking you.
Posted by tomvds on 09.13.08 10:29 pm
The listening to the ‘teacher’ is already that; you’ll find yourself listening, which means your open to the openness. It’s already the perfume of the Self. If you find yourself listening for ’something’ or ‘to someone’, looking for ‘the meaning’, writing it down, repeating it for yourself… then it will lead to more ideas; You might as well sit before the Buddha and you’ll just get more sidetracked and full of new ideas. “If it leaves you more autonomous”, as Jean Klein said, “you’re on the right track”. Finally the proof is “a movement upon a rest”
Posted by gilbert on 09.15.08 9:58 am
In their ignorance many ‘teachers’ imply that they have become ‘enlightened’ - they can express all kinds of disclaimers to cover it up - but the obvious inference is that THEY have something that you do not have. And they tell their stories about that ‘fact’ over and over. They can’t help it - it is just the ego being a ‘pusher’ - its an old habit.
The bottom line is this:
Enlightenment is never and can never be a ‘personal achievement’.
It is the very nature of All Existence – without a single exception.
It is ALL Inclusive.
It is ALL Light.
It is Ever Fresh - and it never compounds or consolidates into anything, any form, that is ‘in time’.
There is nothing that is separate or could be separate from ITSELF.
It is ALL THAT – Just AS IT IS.
http://www.shiningthroughthemind.net
Posted by kale on 09.27.08 2:26 am
Gilbert, turning the attention again and again to the wordless “i am” / sense of presence; is that enough?
Posted by gilbert on 09.27.08 2:43 am
In giving it your complete attention - thoughts cease to draw the attention and so they fade away. As you get used to this, then thoughts can be flowing naturally without them being a trouble to you. Some may be useful and ‘acted upon’ while others can be simply ignored.
You are this presence - in dropping thought the clear awareness reveals itself to be here as this uninterrupted presence of knowing. I would say that in tasting this over and over it is as though that ’space of clear knowing’ expands or grows - like a rose up out of the mire - it pushes the rubble out of the way. These are of course concepts and they can be challenged and contradicted by ‘another’. But this presence of KNOWING is not negotiable. Nothing stands in its way and it cannot be challenged by any thing - because all things only appear in that Knowing. Knowing is all that is truly happening. The ‘knower’ and the ‘known’ are appearances in the KNOWING. Without knowing, there is no knower and nothing known - so one could say that knowing is primary - thoughts, concepts, images and memories are secondary. Yes, I would say that tasting this non-conceptual ‘I am-ness’ is enough. A self-shining intelligence is the potency ‘behind’ or ‘within’ every movement - it IS the actuality. You are THAT. It is Intelligence in action - appearing as everything - EVERYTHING - there are no exceptions. We have limited what we are by believing in thoughts - remove the limitations and it immediately shines - but it is subtle ‘at first’ and so it needs to be tasted over and over. If you read what Nisargadatta says about this question of yours - he says that he used every spare moment to simply abide in the wordless ‘I am’. The wisdom that came though him was not some made up spiritual jargon. Try it and see for yourself. You will know for certain because ‘doubt’ will move away by itself. Doubt is thought based and it cannot remain as the immediate knowing presence ‘expands’.
I use these words because there are no other words and language is dualistic.
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.27.08 1:38 pm
Thanks Gilbert, as always your pointing is so clear and spot on………..
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 09.30.08 2:28 am
Gilbert, there remains an element of confusion between the terms awareness and consciousness. I hear everyone stress a lot upon the difference between the two; different words just seem to cause more confusion. In practical scrutiny, when this separate person is searched for….only a sense of aliveness, a sense of presence is found; if i try go to further as to who is aware of this aliveness; nothing is found. It is the same sense of aliveness / presence. Is staying with this presence (metaphor of course; who is going to stay with the presence??) it? Thanks……
Posted by gilbert on 09.30.08 12:33 pm
Yes…….many stress differences where none exist. The One is undifferentiated Presence.
It is ONLY the mind that ‘creates’ division. It makes ‘this and that’ out of nothing.
Confusion is nothing but tension between different reference points in the mind. A flipping back and forth and an alliance with one side or the other. But ‘who’ is it that flips around INSIDE this KNOWING Presence? It is not the knowing presence that is dualistic - it is non dual. The fulcrum of a see saw is not noticed - but without it, the whole ‘action’ cannot happen. Find your way to the fulcrum of being - the first instant - the ONLY instant of being and that is KNOWING. Everything APPEARS in THAT knowing - that is the SEEING. It is not an object and it has no substance - it is invisible and yet it is incontestable. It is that which cannot be negated - as the ‘mind’ approaches it, the mind vanishes into the KNOWING. The true nature of mind is emptiness. The true nature of everything is emptiness. What benefit can there be in that for anyone or any thing?
This paradox dissolves in silent understanding. Taste that a few times and the habit of belief will be broken ‘forever’. In this clear presence of knowing there may be many who disagree or agree with whatever is expressed ‘from you’ - but it is not an issue anymore. ‘People’ love stories…..no harm in it - it is just the belief in a ‘me’ that drags one into the personal drama.
There is an old saying: “A wise man can pretend to be a fool - but a fool……”…well, you can fill in the rest yourself. It is obvious that many fools are parading as wise sages out there and they make a very good living from it. But what ‘a price’ to pay. Sending their followers on ‘a wild goose chase’. Drop this story and all stories and just be the SEEING. It is very simple - but it is TOO demanding on the believer….and so the simple way is ignored and so ‘they’ spend a small fortune on erroneous teachings and ‘they’ travel a hard nosed highway to nowhere. It is unnecessary - drop the story.
Presence is all there IS.
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 10.01.08 7:46 am
Thanks Gilbert…when a story arises, i tend to ask “who’s experiencing it, who knows it?” And there’s only this presence/ aliveness. The story dissolves in that knowing and only that (presence) remains. I try to bump into this presence as often as possible; sometimes there are sensations which automatically get labeled as “disturbance” and at other times there are sensations which again get labeled as “peaceful” or expansive. The question that now follows is “who experiences this peace / disturbance”? And again it is this blankness / presence (call it any name you may). I suppose this is the sense of “I am-ness” that Maharaj (Nisargadatta) often referred to?
I do not understand what you mean by:
“Find your way to the fulcrum of being - the first instant - the ONLY instant of being and that is KNOWING. Everything APPEARS in THAT knowing - that is the SEEING”.
In simpler terms, can “I” just be with the presence as often as possible. Call it knowing, seeing, looking….or whatever name…the names don’t seem important (they only tend to cause confusion) it is prior to all names anyway…….
Your guidance is truly appreciated….
Posted by gilbert on 10.01.08 11:56 am
Yes the ‘fulcrum’ as a concept can be confusing. The Planet Earth rotates on a fulcrum……..roughly where the North and South Poles are. However, if you were to go there and examine the exact ’spot’ where the fulcrum apparently is……..on extremely close examination, with the aid of the highest magnification possible…..one would find molecules rotating upon empty space……..so the fulcrum ‘line’ that runs through the Earth is actually empty space. This is why I say that “the whole manifest universe moves upon emptiness”. This example is theoretical postulation only but it may convey something definite. No concept or theory is the actuality that it is ‘referring’ to.
You say: ‘Can I be WITH the presence……etc’ and ‘I try to bump into the presence as often as possible” - This is not the way to go….it is all conceptual and it places a limitation that cannot be traversed - it needs to be dropped.
FACT: You are THIS presence. There is no one in this presence that can bump into itself or avoid itself - simply see that it is not two. It is undivided. Un-mediated presence.
This SEEING is IT - Seeing is not divided. Knowing is not divided. This is so clearly obvious ‘back’ in the space from where seeing (knowing) is happening. That space-like awareness has no boundary. ALL being is expressing itself in that without a single division taking place.
There is NO answer in the mind. I see so many trying to work it all out in the mind. They are told over and over that it is useless to do mental gymnastics. It is tiring and leads nowhere. There is an openness that is ignored. When I say “find the fulcrum point’ that openness is what I am talking about. There is no ‘point’ and that is the whole point of this pointing. Paradoxical for the mind - yet obvious in the SEEING.
Posted by kale on 10.01.08 8:20 pm
Gilbert, or better yet maybe just investigate into the nature of this separate person? Only seeing, knowing, presence remains…
Posted by gilbert on 10.01.08 8:36 pm
Yes……..keep it simple. SEEING is happening. The belief that this ‘person’, this ‘me’ is doing some seeing is the problem. There is ONLY one SEEING happening - and that which is seeing is what you are - that is not a concept. The translating mind throws up all manner of concepts about this - but not one of them is IT. This discrimination between pure naked awareness and thought is necessary………..it is necessary ONCE. Then it cannot be forgotten…..even if you wanted to forget it - it will not leave you because what it is is the SEEING….the KNOWING. That is all there IS.
Posted by kale on 10.01.08 8:41 pm
Thanks Gilbert………..
Posted by Sergio on 11.25.08 1:18 pm
thanks for no-thing