Urban Guru Cafe
Discovering what you truly are
23. Catherine Harding – In the tradition of ‘On having No head’ – Part 2. *****
Posted on 11.29.08 12:18PM under Catherine Harding, Podcast
This is a continuation from Part 1 shown below – Please listen to part 1 before part 2.
Music from The Mahabharata film soundtrack, Andreas Vollenweider, Talvin Singh and Rakesh Chaurasia, Simon and Garfunkel, Mercan Dede and the Armenian Duduk is played by Gevorg Dabagian.
The Mozart piece is Quartet #23 in F, Kv 590, Allegro. The Mozart piece is for Catherine, her favorite composer. The unrelated comic piece of music after the end of the program is by an Australian group, Captain Matchbox and the Whoopee Band with some Kookaburras (a distinctive Australian icon bird) joining in. Opening piece by The Moody Blues.
Douglas and Catherine Harding’s Website
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Posted by gilbert on 11.29.08 12:26 pm
Well here it is….part two…one interview presented on two programs. We have tried to preserve the integrity of Catherine’s expression and enhance it where ever possible.
The Mozart at the end is because Catherine told Areti that she enjoyed Mozart a great deal.
The humorous bit at the end has no reflection on the program content. Warm regards – Gilbert.
Posted by SUKI on 11.29.08 2:14 pm
Catherine’s pointers are stunningly explosive and have diamond like clairity!
I marvel at the ease and eloquence of her delivery:)
Cheers,
Suki
Posted by audrey on 11.29.08 8:54 pm
..we Are the intimacy we seek..as Douglas, and now Catherine says, at zero centimetres from ourselves, beautiful. Love to Catherine, Areti and Gilbert.
Posted by tomvds on 11.30.08 12:29 am
Good stuff. Especially the part of being rather than reading and listening to this or that on the net. Nice! ( I wonder if the viccar was inspired to look beyond his nose in the void?
)
Posted by nathan on 11.30.08 9:52 am
aaahhhhhhh!!!! so completely amazing!!!
i’m sorry, but this totally blows doors off of any packaged ‘spirituality’, ideas of enlightenment or any ideas/beliefs…period!
tell me…where the hell can a separate ‘I’ hide in this boundless clear infinite space? stop playing games already and see! this SEEING obliterates all walls and boundaries…
this is the kind of program where if even the greatest intellectual were to listen…REALLY listen and SEE, would be reduced to babbeling, laughter, and tears of joy!!! i don’t consider myself in that category but that certainly was the effect here.
‘we have everything and we have nothing’…a great poet once said…
p.s…really diggin’ the moody blues too…wonderfully put together…thank you!!!
Posted by nathan on 11.30.08 11:10 am
better yet…
we ARE everything and we ARE no thing…both and neither
Being IS, before the slightest notion of it arises…
Posted by Alan on 11.30.08 11:32 am
Thank you dear Catherine. I love the Mozart!
Posted by tomvds on 11.30.08 10:41 pm
When seeing from “Who You Really, really, really Are” as D.H. would say, you will come to see that “there are no days without Light”, which I heard a rabbi quote today from a mystic book. But they are no empty words or something to live by when there’s only the Seeing.
Posted by tomvds on 12.01.08 12:23 am
Just a passing thought:
Following is a quote of Catherine from this podcast which I find to be very important.
“Whereas when you put on an imaginary face on your shoulders, you also put on a mind and ideas that you have something here to defend, something to fight for… ha… It’s so stupid because there is nothing here no one nothing except Awareness
So I think this would be a good way for peace in the world if more and more people could see this. In families… .”
I found this quote from Gilbert’s site also very illustrative on this point !
“It takes two to tango. – If one party withdraws from the battle, the ‘dance is over’.
If you are in a heated argument with someone, watch his or her face when you say, “I totally agree with youâ€. – There will be a reconfiguration of the facial muscles; a flickering of a thousand expressions flash across their face, reflecting the way the mind is trying to re-arrange its ‘position’.”
It’s a phenomenon that I’ve noticed several times, when you act or say something that’s not according to what someone believes you to be. Also in my family, even with my mother !
Posted by gilbert on 12.01.08 4:34 pm
Keep on making comments if you are moved to. There may be a little break from making new programs for a while. There seems to be some trouble with listening to the earlier programs for a few but we are fairly sure that all is well at this end. It may be internet connection problems somewhere along the way. Try again if you have some problems.
The 23 programs here have provided a wealth of exploration. In my opinion it is way more than enough for anyone. These last two programs have, yet again, clearly revealed in one’s own direct and immediate experiencing, THAT which is this clear and empty – this ‘natural state’ of your own (being) existence – and within its obvious and boundless scope, EVERY-THING is recognized as it ‘appears’ BE – yet there is ONLY one BEING. (Include the body and mind in this open view and recognize this obvious factor)
If a definite sense of openness has not revealed itself there at zero centimeters from yourself, then please listen to a selection of the programs again. It is all there to be ‘heard’. – Warm regards – Gilbert
Posted by gilbert on 12.06.08 9:00 am
Another program will appear in due course. Stay tuned.
Posted by Perry Coma on 12.07.08 3:54 am
Hallo, it’s my first time on this site. A very well produced Q&A with Ms Harding!
Although I had been to some of Douglas’ workshops, it is clear that Douglas Harding was not ‘established’ in no-mind as the principal ‘point of view’. He lamented this a few times in interviews and in his own writing. Douglas could give a ‘glimpse’ but could never ‘sustain’ it for himself. (This is of course, a delusional perspective.)
Sailor Bob is incorrect in ascribing ” omniscience, omnipresence…” etc to THAT, which has no attributes. To say IT is “love, infinite presence/awareness” is as silly/profound as saying “IT” is made out of onions and zebra’s eyelashes! To even “know” anything about THAT is baloney! THAT can’t be known in any way.
Except… This human form that (thinks it) knows, is equally THAT. All of the manifest world, the Ten Thousand Things, vacant mind in deep sleep, the annoying woman at the front of the line in the supermarket, even the earnest desire to know “the truth”, is THAT too. Knowing that Leno is funnier than Letterman is THAT.
Not giving a shit anymore about any of this, is THAT! It’s never not THAT.
Hey… ‘Not-That’…. What a great new spiritual idea to sell!
“NOT THAT” I love it!
I’m gonna promote this new neo-Not-That… but call it “NO-THAT.”
Listen, I gotta split, I got me a whole new movement to found. I’m gonna ‘guru’ me up some filthy lucre. Look out for “No-That.” It’s gonna be a sensation. When the Advaita thing peaks, this is what’ll follow, you can bet your boots on it.
Here’s the T-Shirt already:
Know that
NO-THAT.
Stinkin’ Rich = THAT
Also, “Stay poor, suckas!”… is also THAT. Except on Bank Holidays.
THAT’s enough!
Posted by areti on 12.07.08 6:02 am
Hey ‘Perry Coma’ – when Bob talks of its omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience – he is using words (which we all know are limited in describing this) to point to the singularity of it (i.e. all is it).
Even calling it ‘it’ is not correct.
As to Douglas’ clarity on the issue, I have not read anything of what you say – but if you can misconstrue Bob’s words then why not Douglas’?
Posted by Bill Tys on 12.07.08 8:10 am
Bob correctly says “Start with the fact that you are That!”
It is undeniable and not negotiable…it is a given. All manifestation/experience appears in or on That…and is That! “That” is a prerequisite for manifestation/experience.
In the instant this “knowing” appears, then the notion “the formless is the form” arises…so everything is That…even “onions and zebra’s eyelashes!”
Ascribe and allocate as many adjectives, thoughts, concepts and events (the Ten Thousand Things) to That…no matter…
There is only seeing…there is no duality in non duality…everything is That…
Posted by gilbert on 12.07.08 4:26 pm
Perry’s in a coma for sure. It is a bit tiring to wade through the nonsense about clear pointing and this teacher is clear and that one is not so clear or wrong. The pointing is not it either. It is the registering of a recognition that is significant – inexplicable yet totally a turn around. Now language is dualistic so we can all pull each others words apart and argue forever. The ‘pointless point’ is there is no self-center. Recognizing that is all that is necessary. We can hear the pointers and the guiding words many times and nothing happens. ‘At some point’ the recognition happens (not as a doing by a ‘you’ or some ‘entity’) – intelligence recognizes what has already been cognized and yet seemingly forgotten.
The recognition appears to arise in the pattern called ‘body-mind’. This ‘activity’ does not have any form or pattern to it – the KNOWING is not in any pattern at all.
The patterns that appear as the world, the body and the content of mind do NOT have any knowing to them – not any knowing that is separate from the singular KNOWING – which is actually EVERYTHING. Everything appears in this SEEING – and SEEING is also called KNOWING. They are not two. In knowing this factor ALL Arguments vanish and ALL points of view vanish back into the KNOWING – because that is all they are – transient, temporary expressions of the KNOWING – which is what everything is without a single exception. I hear well known teachers saying in their meetings that so and so (another teacher) is stuck in some mind realm. This is an absurd thing to say. IF this teacher truly understood his own teaching, he would KNOW that there is NO ONE stuck anywhere in anything. One up man ship between teachers is rather pathetic and just reveals their inadequacies quite blatantly. All in the appearances and nothing more. Yet, many seekers trust these teachers and believe every word they say and so they are mislead over and over and the necessary recognition is ‘postponed’ indefinitely. Direct pointing is a double ended arrow which ‘exists’ for a nano-second if at all.
If you hang onto your points of view, you will drown in them.
Cast them aside and SEE. Where is the immaculate clarity of seeing right now? It has not disappeared just because some thoughts appear and disappear.
Posted by Mark Ellis on 12.08.08 12:57 am
Stunningly Clear, Gilbert~
Posted by Sergio on 12.08.08 1:58 am
Yes, in the final analysis, in the final seeing, there is no other people. So, this argument of who is clear, or you are clearer than me, only can bring more confusion, more attraction to concepts.
It is totally easy and simple. No need to argue .
Posted by Sergio on 12.08.08 3:12 am
But the “full stop” is the last thing the mind wants. Is his end.
You are already that. There is no me seeking or trying to understand.
All the past understanding is reduced to one denominator : zero.
Non duality is all . Nothing is excluded, even the sense of separation and seeking.
Non duality is a name, “we” can discard that concept too.
Without identity, you still are. No need to seek, no need to compare, no needs.
There is no ripening. There is no maturation. There is no growing, in what we really are.
In the appearance, all short of things happen, we never know what is. Labeling the happenings dont mean we know anything. All are labels, only words.
For example i´m in Spain. Here we have a very different language.
I´m not saying anything new, but is not the same hearing words, than speaking from your own seeing.
We can try to understand, we can try hard… but who do that? who? where is it? where?
This is not intelectual food. This is not any caper.
Full stop. The mind is never going to understand, there is nothing to understand.
Non Duality is not about teachers, is not about the “me”
We can speak and speak, who is hearing?
There is nobody, if nobody asks, one can remain silent. One is already silence.
Sergio.
This is not about brilliant words.
Discard all ideas… you are inescapable
Posted by Sergio on 12.08.08 4:52 am
“I am enlightened” Is that true?
Is not the same dog with another purlin?
It can be “I am a man” or ” I am a woman”
I am, inescapable. Then you have the history, but who holds it? where is it?
The mind tires of banging his head
There is no final answer, be-ing is the answer.
I wish to say it original…. but this is not about the pointers, is about what is pointed.
The spiritual history of a seeker is another history. As it can be whatever history.
This is the end game for the storyteller to live. It never existed.
Typing happens, there is seeing, there is toughts, who are you?
Can you ever find a “me?
The so called mind can dream. But who are you?
Finally, the little mouse gets tired.
Is not something terrible. Is not any flashing experience. Is what you always have been.
There is no one inside the head. No one to harm or to be harmed.
The history can be very emotional, but who are you?
There is no end to the seeking, as the seeker never existed. The search never began. Is all imagination.
You never existed as you think you are. Where is the me? Where is the phantom?
Talking happens.
Any word is going to show you who you are. In a moment you are going to get tired. You are going to get sick of non duality. You are going to Dissolve.
1,2,3, voilá, nothing here, nothing there… the screen was empty all the time.
You have seen the trick.
Then you can have popcorn and a drink.
It was empty all the time, a very convincing movie.
No special state.
This message is “awful” for the spiritual concepts,the spiritual self-image, i know
Nothing to understand !!
Posted by gilbert on 12.08.08 5:18 pm
There is nothing final about it. No final analysis. No final Seeing. All there is is SEEING-KNOWING. The rest is appearances and nothing more. Wrestle with the appearances if that ‘you’ must but it will achieve nothing.
Posted by tazzy on 12.09.08 11:02 pm
A very refreshing view from Catherine,thanks Gibert and Areti,love the music on the last few shows, Luv Tazzy.
Posted by Nick on 12.10.08 6:47 pm
I understand what all of these speakers are saying and I understand the processes they speak of. I even understand the revelation. Here is where I am confused: Should I tell others?
Or, if you prefer a more enlightened language, ‘I’ means ‘all that exists’ or ‘that’, which means that everything contained in awareness are one and the same. If I am the dream and the dreamer, what is the point of the dream?
I tend to concur with Alan Watts’ notion of “the game of hide and seek.” The dream and the dreamer is me playing hide and seek with myself, but, if I am playing a game, do I want to tell THAT where I am hiding? Or am I playing the game from multiple perspectives? If I am playing from multiple perspectives, do I ruin the game by saying anything?
Posted by Sergio on 12.10.08 8:13 pm
Nick, …..
Are you speaking from your own seeing ?
Probably all you have been readed is not true…
What are you expecting in making all these questions?
What you expect? What answer do you need? what is missing?
Who seeks the answers?
Who are you?
Posted by Mark Ellis on 12.11.08 2:32 am
A Wise Sage (you know who you are) once told me that “Understanding” this is the mind’s last trump card, which tends to deepen the confusion.
This helped:
So you know “you are”. Your own being is beyond doubt. Start right there. Have a clear sense of this being (your own presence) without identifying it with any concept. One thing you can verify right off — your being is not a concept. That is why this has nothing to do with concepts, even spiritual concepts. This has nothing to do with teachers, teachings or particular experiences, however glorious, because this undeniable being clearly precedes all of those things. No teacher, system, path, or approach owns this, because it is already present as your own self. The answer is Not in the mind.
John Wheeler
Posted by nathan on 12.11.08 9:31 am
ALL thoughts/insights about THIS are false. talking sharing or discussion may arise, this lovely space here is a great example…but not conclusions. thoughts can never touch now. thoughts or “I” just dam up the works.
a certain energy may seem to be released when “I” is seen clearly…and that can be contagious or ebullient, much laughter may ensue … but when it comes down to it … how can THIS be turned into prostylization…paraphrasing Catherine form this program…this is not a fixed position to defend.
knowing presence only operates now…this now is ever present… the mind cannot know it, it can only be open/empty to THAT…
does all of this dribble sound like a conclusion?!?! ha! maybe…but it’s only what is happening now…i don’t believe my own bullshit anymore…and it feels pretty damn good!
Posted by gilbert on 12.11.08 5:47 pm
Everything is contained in the SEEING.
Simply BE the SEEING.
It is so clearly obvious without a thought.
But the mind insists on entering center stage – like a retired actor who can’t give up the applause addiction. WHO is it that believes in what the mind ‘says’?
There is NO answer in the mind.
The pathetic push and pull that goes on will achieve NOTHING.
It is not a ‘matter’ of quietening the mind so that the clarity of pure seeing can happen.
It is ALL contained in the SEEING. It is ALL SEEING.
There is NO entity to it – nowhere and at no time has there ever been an entity.
All such things are appearances in the SEEING.
Those believed in ‘things’ do not have any power to see or know anything at all.
The mysterious ‘entity’ cannot withstand exposure to the direct and immediate SEEING, seeing without a reference point from the past.
The mind translates ‘what is’ and adds all kinds of elements that have NO existence except as imaginary ‘things’. The one who is bound up is made of the same ‘things’ and it does not exist at all. So, what are ‘you’ going to ‘do’ about that?
There is nothing you can do – except drop the ‘seer’ idea and SEE what IS.
THIS is totally available to everyone and NO condition can hinder SEEING.
It is the ‘seer’ and the ‘seen’ that seemingly ‘create’ the duality.
As Bob says “Start from the fact that you ARE THAT”.
I say “If you start anywhere else, then you are stuffed”.
Words………………what are they?
Warm regards to……..’no one’. – G.
Posted by Dan on 12.12.08 10:31 am
The way that it’s talked about here has inspired me to share my experience:
My experience is that there is no duality. None. Period. End of story.
AND there is ALSO the appearance of some duality from some perspective. The perspective appears to be arbitrary and can be changed easily. It’s recognized as not the whole truth, but is functional for interacting in the world. It’s hard to explain, because the perspective itself is like clothes that are worn. They are there if checked, but only for functional purposes. Most of the time, I’m not really thinking about it, so the focus is not on the “clothes” being worn. And if the perspective stops working, it can be changed.
Somehow, this nonduality and duality exist completely and simultaneously, and YET the duality is not separate from the nonduality. There is 100% nonduality and 100% duality at every point in Creation, which appears to arise out of the Absolute, although the Absolute contains it. And the Absolute is beyond time/space so there’s the feeling also as if none of this ever happened.
It’s a paradox, and deeply in the paradox, without there being any separation to it. The mind, while fascinated, is not struggling to “get it” because there is nothing to “get” within the mind…
Does that make sense to anyone?
Posted by suki on 12.12.08 2:33 pm
Dan,
Making sense or not making sense have in my view nothing to with the actual ‘Seeing’! Everything that one comes up with is ‘Seen in the Seeing’.
What ever you come up with, will always be in the content and what will never be known is in the ‘CONTEXT’ it arises in.
The ‘CONTEXT’ will always be the ‘ULTIMATE SUBJECT’!
Just ‘SEE’ for your self.
Warmest Rgds,
Suki
Posted by gilbert on 12.12.08 3:07 pm
“these threads get caught up in conflict, taking sides, guru bashing, and all that stuff.” AND WHO is it that takes that to be real or even to be a problem?
The KNOWING is uncompromising – every falsehood is exposed. The ONE does not need ‘another’ to KNOW.
So often ‘people’ learn the language of Non Duality but they still hang onto a ‘spiritual self-image’ and all the concepts about time and progress – ‘I got it and they have not got it’. It is all crap – all of it. When a Guru sits on his platform he is indulging in a grand illusion of separateness – yet he speaks of Non Duality – what a sham.
The meetings are given a fancy name ‘Satsang’. I say Bunkum. A meeting is a meeting – simple as that – and anyone worth his salt (a so called teacher) meets others in equanimity BECAUSE he does not perceive separation and so he does not energize the fantasy of separation by inference or by his teaching or words.
If you can’t handle the HEAT, get out of the FIRE.
It is the fire that destroys illusions of ME.
All this preference for being NICE is bunkum – there is no entity – Full Stop. But this cannot be a belief or theory – it must be KNOWING.
AWARENESS is NON DUAL.
There is nothing stuck anywhere. This is clearly obvious in the very nature of SEEING itself. Everything without a single exception is an appearance in this clear and immaculate seeing.
What is appearing?
It is all LIGHT appearing as sensations, impressions and what we commonly call ‘matter’.
Does a light beam stop and get stuck anywhere – does it ever compound into anything? If it bounces between two mirrors does it need to take a rest and recharge itself?
Everything is awareness appearing as this and that.
The mind cannot grasp the essence of THIS.
The mind is only an appearance in THIS.
It is all energy – ONE singular EXPRESSION – too minute and too vast for the mind to grasp.
The INSTRUMENT of cognition is an appearance in the cognition. The EYE is not seeing anything – it is a mere instrument. The EAR does not hear anything either.
A dead body obviously cannot ‘do’ anything. Without that life essence the instruments which are actively functioning right now – they could not function.
It is the arrogating ‘ego’ that says “I see, I hear and I do all of these things”.
The ego is an image – it is not the enemy as long as it is understood for what it is, it can serve very well. If it believes it is the life-force then it runs a muck and ’causes all kinds of unnecessary dramas. Yet it is all nothing but this expression – non duality appearing as ‘many’.
Everything that ‘you see’ is the same expression – the stillness of the finest spiderweb or a Mac Truck speeding down a freeway.
It is ALL contained in the SINGULAR SEEING.
The WHOLE manifestation is the SEAMLESS GARMENT – no beginning and no end. No edge and no center.
Everything ‘you know’ is nothing but this IMMEDIATE Expression. There is NO PAST. A memory is the same expression arising NOW.
It is NAKED AWARENESS. Unadorned natural presence does not need a concept.
It is the mind that seemingly needs concepts for without them it disappears.
Even though the mind disappears – what you ARE remains.
This is the only ‘thing’ you need to KNOW.
KNOWING this includes everything of the relativity.
Each fraction of the relative is the Absolute.
There is NO individual self realization.
It is ALL Self-Realizing – Just AS IT IS.
In the First Instant (the ONLY instant) of recognizing THIS, there may ‘appear’ a dissolving pattern of belief and the remnants may ‘feel’ like ‘humbleness’. This passes just as everything passes – YET what you are remains.
For a ‘lucky one’ there will be an uncompromising intelligence that will destroy any concept that arises regarding ‘I am now enlightened’.
The ‘unfortunate ones’ engage with that concept and take on the story of being an enlightened ‘guru’ – which is a falsehood of the grandest magnitude.
This is how it has been revealed ‘here’. Since this in incontestable as the immediate and is the direct experiencing RIGHT NOW, and so it is NOT relying on any concept (which is time), ‘I’ can say with absolute certainty that ‘This revelation’ is totally available to ‘anyone’ and IMMEDIATELY – as long as there is a dropping of any concepts that may arise and that there is no engagement in them – in the habitual way that everyone (‘people’) so often ‘appear’ to do.
Letting this revelation ‘sink into ones being’ takes one beyond duality – where one has truly ALWAYS been – yet forgotten ‘somehow’.
Understanding is SILENT.
This is impossible to share with anyone – yet ‘pointing happens’. Most often it is not recognized because of the habit of going with the minds translation and the BELIEF that that translation is reality. Reality is unchanging – you have NEVER not been THAT. But the mind will throw up all kinds of arguments – YOU must tell it to be quiet – even if only for a MOMENT – THIS moment is ACTUALLY ‘Eternity’. Self-Realizing – The ACTUALITY.
As it IS.
Posted by Dan on 12.13.08 3:14 am
Suki,
“Does that make sense?” is simply a question to see how people relate or don’t relate to the described experience. That really wasn’t the main thrust of the post.
My description IS a description of the seer and seen not being separated. Go back and reread it.
Further, you can say it will all be in the content and not the CONTEXT, but then you have, again, completely missed everything I’ve said in the post (or else I was unclear, hence the question at the bottom to check). I think everyone gets so caught up in talking about it a certain way, they get stuck on that. The finger points at the moon. The moon can never be given, only referred to. Of COURSE there is no exact combination of words that will be “right”. You have to look beyond the words and beyond the concepts to see what the concepts are referring to. At first, when the individual disappeared, was a complete feeling conceptlessness, but then there was the realization that, although the original feeling is still there (and still in the forefront), concepts are still going on, but as part of the functioning of Wholeness, of Emptiness. They are no longer felt to be limiting, because they are simply concepts. Still they are functional.
The unification of Absolute (context) and relative (content) means that the context and content are becoming inseparable, as the content IS the context itself. Separating the two creates another duality of “the world” and “that which is beyond the world”, but the experience is starting to get more and more overwhelming at how they are the same.
Does that “make sense”?
Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 12.13.08 5:40 am
You’ll never find the answer in the mind. Go as deep in the mind as you’d like and you’ll never find it. Master non-duality concepts, have peak experiences–they will still be something happening for a “me”. That pure functioning which is unmistakable when a thought is paused is not a special state that “I” do. It’s a cognition of what never changes. It doesn’t even require a label; it’s the most intimate “thing” known. On present evidence there’s no “I” and there’s no separation either. Chop it all up with the mind and its many labels, no matter how grand or spiritual the label, and the “I” seemingly arises, perceived separation, lack, and suffering. See through the unreality of words and even the chatter that naturally arises can never budge you from center.
Posted by Dan on 12.13.08 6:40 am
Kimo,
Right, but it’s not the labels that are the problem. That seems to be the confusion. There will always be labels, labeling, the concept of those things – (i.e. labels (and indeed the potential for any concept) cannot be separated from infinite consciousness). Nothing spiritual OR ordinary can describe the experience, because descriptions are always in terms of duality, even if they’re trying to express something beyond that. It’s not the labels that are the issue, it’s believing in the idea of a separate “I” label to be bound by the other labels.
The “experience” given isn’t a one time experience, or even something that lasts or lasted for a while. It’s living reality. It’s just the way it is for me. It’s not complicated, it just sounds that way when trying to express it, because it’s a paradox.
As David Carse says “Does exist, CANNOT be expressed.”
One of the whole points about trying to describe this experience is that it IS paradoxical. That means that the mind cannot conceive it, and if you really follow it and what it’s really saying, then the mind will have to stop. The mind can conceive the concept of “Infinite Nothingness” and can conceive of “Endless Relativity” but if it’s really 100% both of those AND both are not separate from each other, how can the mind comprehend that? It must EITHER be Absolute OR Relativity at any given point. It cannot possibly be that from the mind, but that is the experience. So the mind fails. That’s one of the things that’s so exciting for me. This way of talking about it, IF followed through, hits the paradox on the black hole of a head. At least it does for me.
Is it that hard to see that what I’m trying to express is the same thing? I may be using different terminology, but it can’t be THAT different…
Posted by gilbert on 12.13.08 8:27 am
There is no becoming.
The post was not addressed to anyone in particular.
We take things personally and the trouble kicks in again but it is just an appearance.
Posted by Dan on 12.13.08 8:34 am
“There is no becoming.”
What?! Then what have I been doing all this time?!
You take that back! I hate you! (cries and runs into room, slamming door angstfully)
Hehe.
Posted by gilbert on 12.14.08 8:55 am
The mind loves stories – or so it seems.
The value of any ‘pointer’ is not in the pointer – it is in the instant of recognition.
So all pointers of ‘value’ are pointing at THIS moment of being – not at some situation that you may find yourself in (in time – for ‘time’ is mind).
This immediacy of being is not a story – it is NEVER a story. A story may ‘appear’ in it.
All stories are about another time, even if it speaks of this moment.
This moment is unique – and all stories are ‘made of’ words, images and memories – all of the past. THIS moment is inexpressible and remains so.
THIS MOMENT is unique – it is what I call PURE DURATION of BEING.
It is never ‘becoming’ – it is NEVER the future nor the past.
All arrows shot at THIS invisible target called NOW always fall short or dissolve into thin air before they reach it – in fact they can only be shot ‘away’ from THIS. Yet THIS contains everything without a single exception.
“What you seek you already ARE.”
Start from this clear moment of immaculate presence – without holding a thought – and SEE, recognized that THIS clear and immaculate clarity of BEING is always Presence.
What you believe you are is just a transient appearance in THIS.
This revelation is a relief – the Burden of one’s ‘personal baggage’ loses the ‘carrier’ because the carrier is recognized as an appearance in THIS.
Well, some say ‘it all goes over their heads’ – but in recognizing that there is ‘no head’ – it must be recognized from ‘pure seeing’.
What you truly are is invisible.
That factor is threatening to the believed in ‘person’ yet it is completely obvious in pure seeing.
Now watch the mind and SEE where it tries to go. Has the habitual reaction already taken you away? Where could you possibly go? THIS IS IT.
Posted by gilbert on 12.14.08 9:18 am
By the way, there will be a new program published in due course – very soon. Stay tuned.
Posted by Mike in SF on 12.14.08 6:43 pm
Looking forward to it Gilbert/Areti, thanks.
Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 12.14.08 9:30 pm
I initially saw this in reading John’s first book & speaking with him. What was being pointed to was simple and true. Same with the MP3s of Bob, Stephen, and Gilbert. Making a career of this or explaining in greater and greater detail to others in coming up with “the most accurate” pointer is a quickly dwindling interest arising for “me”. Several folks have seemingly forgotten about the basics and think there’s something more to get in additional food for the mind. Is Awareness there? Full Stop. Done. Finito.
Posted by Mark Ellis on 12.15.08 3:42 am
Easier Done Than Said~
Posted by Dan on 12.15.08 5:44 am
Gilbert,
Right, all pointers are to experiences of what is really going on. This points to a situation in someone’s Awareness right now. Thus, any experience of the non-change, and relation to change is available, and I find to be useful, and fascinating.
Kimo. It sounds like trying to force a situation to me. The story can be there, the thoughts can be there, ANYTHING can be there, and that IS it. That IS Awareness. Nothing can take one out of it. You can talk about “mind stopping into one instant of permanent Awareness” but, my experience is that it’s something that builds over time, something that is sunk into. Once the initial realization/acceptance of lack of individuality is there on a fundamental level, then nothing can take that seeing away. That is, once it is seen, it can never be unseen. And sure, there’s no time/space and all that we are already what we are seeking. These are all the helpful, and these are all the experience, but so what? Even though that’s true, the appearance of life continues. The story continues. The story is arbitrary and can come and go and change and whatever, as the story does not imply separateness. It’s only the putting STOCK in the appearance that causes the feelings of separation.
My experience is that the sinking in happens deeper and deeper over time, and there seems to always be deeper levels of refinement of that. The fulfillment doesn’t change, but somehow it expands. It would be nice to say, well the whole world ends once that’s realized, and that’s a good way of talking about it, but it’s only a way of talking about it.
General pointers to “wake people up” are useful I guess, but I just think all of it is interesting, despite it being simple and amazing and intense and all of that. The whole Being in the Now thing is so popular and whatever, but it’s just one way of talking about it. Of course it isn’t a separate state. That’s the whole point. But if that can be trusted, then it can be safe enough to explore everything else of the appearance in terms of the relationship to the self. “none of this exists outside this moment” is nice for a while, but eventually it sinks in. I get it. It’s clear, I don’t need to keep talking about that fact or reminding myself. It’s a constant experience.
I find that the idea that there isn’t more to be had once realization occurs is just resistance from a feeling of fragile experience of nonduality. once that’s trusted, it’s not an issue. So either you can talk about the experience after realization, which is interesting to me. It’s always expanding, and there’s always more to be had, because poking the infinite will always give more. Or one can just never talk about it, which some people do. But do we really need to keep reminding ourselves the same way how we are safe because there’s no duality? Isn’t that just another habit/addiction that we slip into?
Posted by gilbert on 12.15.08 7:50 am
There is no such thing as ‘someone’s awareness’.
All there is is Awareness. All inclusive.
No self – no relationship to self. It is ALL THAT.
It is the dualistic mind that divides the indivisible – and yet there is NO duality in Non Duality.
Understanding is wordless – silent. Nothing to say and no point to convince anyone about.
The tossing about is all mind stuff. No harm done.
Posted by Dan on 12.16.08 3:31 am
My Awareness encompasses both dual and nondual. That is why there is no separation. The dual IS the nondual.
Posted by gilbert on 12.16.08 7:11 am
There is no ‘MY AWARENESS’. ‘Your’ concept of ‘encompassing both’ is simply dualistic thoughts. Still, there is no point in tugging and pulling over this ‘point’.
There is either understanding or there isn’t. There is no duality in non duality.
Hang onto nothing and SEE.
Posted by Dan on 12.16.08 10:18 am
“My Awareness” is what you are calling “Awareness”. Is that so hard to see? I know this, because my Awareness is all there is, all there was, and all there will ever be. It’s not dual, but that doesn’t mean there’s no Relativity. It just means that it’s a paradox. There is NOTHING my Awareness doesn’t encompass, NOTHING it is not connected to. It’s NOT POSSIBLE for it to be disconnected from anything at all ever. Thus, any concept of duality, even if it’s just a concept, is ALSO me – (me as in my Awareness – the only Awareness there is).
Posted by suki on 12.16.08 2:47 pm
Gentlemen&Women:
Present evidence reveals that “AWARENESS” has no attributes such as:dimension, colour, weight , age, time of creation or dissolution, or location!Not to mention that it is authorless!!
There is only a seamless cohesive whole.( language based attempt at description).
Any attempt to personalise this is immediately seen through as a bogus claim by a bogus identity!
Anything that can be perceived, will always be in the “AWARENESS”. But “THAT” which cannot be perceived is “THAT” (the unnameable or any name you prefer) in which the perceiving arises in! This should be blindingly obvious if sincere “SELF” investigation into this matter “IS” taking place!
Warmest Rgds, Suki
Posted by Sergio on 12.16.08 11:00 pm
Funny thing we talk about the same over and over… about something that cannot be expressed, only an attempt to.
Nobody can understand, but “the life force” take one to speak. More precisely, there isn´t one, there is only what is, without separation, entitys, or dilemmas/dramas.
What is, nothing to achieve or understand. Is really that simple and obvious.
Non Duality is not any phenomenon to work out. Is the obviousness of what is, right here right now.
No entity doing anything. That´s a death? … there were never was a birth in the first place…
IS the same ancient joke, and still laughs happen…
If you are still waiting for something to happen, you can look for who is waiting? who?
At best , there is only waiting.
Whatever arises is what arises, no one doing it.
Non Duality is hopeless, but if you are attracted to…. the old seeking game can fade away. No big event.
Peace is what you always were. Right now, what is lacking? who seeks?
Direct, inmediate, and evident, where is the seeker?
One essence appearing
Time is a mind notion, is useful for activities process, but is only that, a notion.
No bid deal, this is totally ordinary, and evident. For the big tales of big experiences, better you go dreaming.
All what you seek, is what you are, what a contradiction….
who seeks?
No verbal answer, what is left is the “answer” .
You are !
Reading same words over and over? what you are is not a concept. You are !
Seek no more, is futile.
Stop now, you are
Peace
Sergio
Posted by Ralph on 12.17.08 10:03 am
Beautifully said , Sergio !
I’m just curious Sergio, are those your words ? even though it doesn’t matter who said them, it got the point across.
… and Peace to you !
Posted by Dude on 12.17.08 10:35 am
Nice.
Posted by Kimo (Jim) on 12.17.08 5:28 pm
Another point I’ll make…the seeing of this has to be your own. You know what the spiritual writings say “There is no Person” “There’s only Awareness”. Don’t believe any of it. Take the “time” to examine thoughts, examine objects, contemplate parts of the body. There is seeming awareness “of” these items, but are any of those the “You/I” that is Aware? As John would say, forget about the effects of suffering…without the cause there are no effects. All conceptual, yes, but not too shabby of an explanation. Don’t assume there’s no reference point. “Try” to find one. You are your own Guru, not a book or an MP3.
Posted by Will on 12.18.08 1:08 am
Suki,
Clarity.
Right on the nail.
Thanks
Posted by Dan on 12.19.08 4:55 am
Suki,
“Present evidence reveals that “AWARENESS†has no attributes such as:dimension, colour, weight , age, time of creation or dissolution, or location!Not to mention that it is authorless!!”
hehe, of course! The author is THAT Awareness. Why talk about it as if it’s separate from you?
It just IS. But it IS personal. How could it not be? It just isn’t limited to an individual. In fact, what individual? So I guess that would make the question “personal to who?”
And the answer is: personal to Itself, the only thing going on. But to refer to it as an “IT” implies that it’s “over there somewhere”. It’s not that I, as the idea of a person, am That. It’s that That is what I am and have always been. But it’s getting more and more personal. Not to me as an individual, but to me as That. As the identification with That (what;s really going on) starts to sink in, then this personal-ness comes out. It’s hard to describe – but what is this “it” business? Is it because there are no edges? Because I certainly relate to that…(or “it” does – after all, what’s the difference?). And I suppose that’s the point. I can say “I” as that, and I can say “it” as that.
As “I”, there are no edges, nothing outside of it.
What’s really the difference between That pretending to be all of Creation, and That confused that it’s a limited individual? The only difference is the confusion, not the That. Once you know, it sort of becomes a moot point…
See what I’m saying?
Posted by will on 12.19.08 5:21 am
the words the words the words
wont EVER be right Dan.
Posted by suki on 12.19.08 12:10 pm
Dan,
Start with that you ‘ARE’. You cannot deny that you ‘ARE’! And what you ‘ARE’ cannot be objectified because words and language allways fall short because they are limited and finite. But what you ‘ARE’ is beyond language,time and description another way of stating this, is you are the ‘INFINITE’. Hence the confusion with words and language.
Simply, you ‘ARE’……..no need to say anything.
‘IT’ or ‘THAT’ will always be an enigma:)
Warmest Rgds,
suki
Posted by gilbert on 12.19.08 4:27 pm
Whatever the mind translates the direct and immediate experiencing into is NOT the experiencing being described – yet that translation is the experiencing – as a translation.
In SEEING this taking place – like hearing your own voice – one KNOWS that one is actually beyond the expressions. As Nisargaradatta says: The mind is a good servant but a bad master. The mind can serve well so long as the tyrant ‘me’ is not claiming ownership of the spontaneous functioning. One should be able to recognize that the ‘me’ is an idea and all of its terrain is also ‘ideas’ – they appear and disappear – yet what ‘I am’ remains ‘prior to whatever the mind does’.
Posted by Dan on 12.20.08 4:52 am
Sure, it all sounds like the same thing to me…
Posted by dorothy hoffman on 12.20.08 8:04 am
Gilbert, have yet to come across “somebody” as clear as “you”…
Posted by terry cantor on 12.20.08 9:02 am
Hallo everyone. What a lovely website. Thanks to those who put it together. What a treasure-house of gold!
Over 20 years ago I was on vacation in Australia, and was chatting to a man in Sydney – I think his name was was John Lewis, which was also the name of a Department store. It’s a while ago.
I had an interest in Zen Buddhism at the time and he immediately talked about “capacity”- the aware space in which everything happens, including ‘me’.
I ‘got it’ straightaway. Then I forgot about it. Forgot it and got on with life.
Then it came back, and ‘I’ went away and didn’t even notice… and that’s how it’s been now for about 20 years!
Happens when it happens… or it doesn’t. But it’s better living in ‘openess’ rather than inside that off-kilter, reactive, strategizing, frightened worry-structure called “me”.
That’s all.