Urban Guru Cafe

Discovering what you truly are

62. John Wheeler – the truth of who you are – III

Posted on 11.20.09 5:17PM under John Wheeler

John Wheeler talks about the nature of this sense of self called ‘I’.

John shares his insights without any dramatic overtones or any requests to believe anything he says. See for yourself. John is also featured in other programs on this site.

John does not have a website at present – you can contact him via an email address which can be found on our links page.

Music includes: Some classic Simon and Garfunkel. Annour Brahem from an excellent recent CD titled “Le pas du Chat noir”

The UGC is a free podcast site. A small number of our listeners make small donations now and then, for the maintenance of this site. We appreciate that. This is just a short reminder that ‘giving back’ is a valid thing to do. Enjoy the 62 programs. Warm regards from ‘the team’ here at the UGC. Also please consider attending the Second Life (free) meetings at the UGC. The times of the meetings are on this site – ‘SL time’.

Read Comments

  1. Posted by gilbert on 11.20.09 5:20 pm

    Welcome to program 62. You will find this program simple and relaxed.
    John has three other programs on this site. Enjoy.

  2. Posted by Wim Hein on 11.21.09 5:49 am

    It’s Good… It’s Clear… It’s Live… It’s God… It’s Nothing… It’s Brilliant…
    Just Wonderful…

    Thank you all…

    With Love… from BEEING

  3. Posted by Cheryl on 11.21.09 7:04 am

    Interesting that we cannot stop thinking and that stopping thinking is not the answer. Is it important to know what you’re thinking before it can be dropped? It seems to require some conscious awareness of thought. Some effort. Nisargadatta suggested there is some silence required in the seeming process of awareness. Is this so we become aware of what we’re thinking? How important is that?

  4. Posted by fernando on 11.21.09 7:14 am

    I = Awareness = Presence = Being = Seeing = Knowing = Oneness = Wholeness = Emptiness = Nowness = Hereness = Suchness = I

  5. Posted by Cheryl on 11.21.09 8:30 am

    I found Nisargadatta’s words I was making reference to;

    “The mind covers up reality without knowing it. To know the nature of the mind you need intelligence, the capacity to look at the mind in silent and dispassionate awareness.”

    Buddhists call in mindfulness. What are your thoughts?

  6. Posted by gilbert on 11.21.09 9:03 am

    Coming from the perspective of the mind, many things appear to be necessary.
    Starting from the fact of your own being, nothing is necessary.
    The ‘tormentuous’ realm of struggle and conflicting thought patterns is not what you ARE – in knowing that thought will lose its apparent power and may cease to bother you, without ‘your intervention’. Some call if ‘grace’ but that is just another concept.
    Mind is time. Mind is time. Mind is time.

    Silence is pervasive.
    There is a seeming infinite ‘amount’ of Silence in the universe. You don’t have to be a Glider Pilot to experience silence. Any experiencing of silence may be translated into thought. The thought is not silence – it is mind and mind is time. Silence is timeless – understanding is wordless.
    All pointers are just pointers.
    What is it that gives ‘life’ to everything?
    Bare naked cognition is not a thought or concept.
    Non-conceptual awareness is ‘the great perfection’.
    Everyone ignores it simply by believing in a ‘me’ who is searching for ‘silence’ or ‘God’ or ‘completeness’or whatever.
    The search is the problem.

  7. Posted by Cheryl on 11.21.09 10:41 am

    Hey I get the thumbs down, no worries.

    The silence is in that there is no longer a ‘me’ to attach thoughts to. Therefore thought dissapates. Not searching for an experience, just going with the pointers, which are not the thing. I read it somewhere that “my silence sings”. Beautiful. Thanks Gilbert.

  8. Posted by Scarfox on 11.21.09 12:21 pm

    Who’s that in the background saying things?

  9. Posted by claudia on 11.21.09 4:21 pm

    John’s words come through in a pristine, concise, spot on way – bare of any speck, pure like a clean cut diamond, and like Annour Brahem’s music.

  10. Posted by Scarfox on 11.21.09 4:28 pm

    why 5 stars down? at one point I heard someone say 3 years old that sounded like Bob, maybe they were hanging out…

  11. Posted by su on 11.21.09 7:46 pm

    Thank you once again Areti and Gilbert for a gift that continues to give.
    Thank you John for the clarity of words.
    Particularly the part about thoughts not being the problem, just thoughts whereby we identified with them.
    Once that is seen it all does seem to slip away and stories which have been so huge in the past are exposed as empty happenings and nothing more than that.
    And with that there is a lightness in being……..
    and an absence of seeking….

  12. Posted by fernando on 11.22.09 12:38 am

    “I can’t get it” is a thought appearing in what you are.
    “I’ve get it” is a thought appearing in what you are.
    Both of them are inconsequencial, just thoughts.
    What you ARE is ever ‘there’ (here).
    There are no ‘ignorant’ persons, nor ‘enlightened’ ones.

  13. Posted by stephen met on 11.22.09 12:46 am

    Areti just told me that this program came from a conversation where there were a few other people present. She edited out most of the others so as to focus on what John was saying.

  14. Posted by gilbert on 11.22.09 1:35 am

    The recording was from a small discussion group and others were present. It does not matter who they were. Areti edited John’s clear expressions into a nice package. It was recorded here in Australia at Areti’s home. John makes a trip to Australia every year or so. At one of these gatherings John and I played music together after a pleasant meal. Bob was not present at that gathering. All these details are unnecessary of course. I know how some love to know some of the background info. The clear message is always first and formost.
    I think it is an excellent program and is very easy to listen to. Warm regards – Gilbert.

  15. Posted by Cheryl on 11.22.09 4:35 am

    Jeff Foster said “there is only what’s happening.” To look beyond the present moment for experience is not ‘it’. Who and what is it happening to is the only real question. It stops mind in its tracks. “There is only what’s happening”.

  16. Posted by anatta on 11.22.09 6:39 am

    Thanks for the always clear pointing John. Love.

  17. Posted by Scarfox on 11.22.09 7:38 am

    Yep, thanks, I was just wondering. A thought came up saying, ‘oh Bob is reminding him’. But of course Bob wasn’t even there, so I guess in that sense it is good that I found out yet another thought was false ;)

  18. Posted by gilbert on 11.22.09 11:54 am

    And what Jeff says is not true either.
    Nothing is actually happening.
    To say that something is happening is already misleading for the apparent one listening or reading.
    In the clear and empty space of pure cognition there is nothing happening and it is clear and obvious.
    All affirmations fall short and all denials fall short…..they cannot occupy this clear space of pure cognition.
    KNOWING that is not a concept – it is expressed as words and concepts but they all fall short…….and to say that they all fall short is also not true – because ALL EXPRESSIONS ARE NOT IT……YET THEY APPEAR…….AND THEY ARE IT BUT NOT AS THEY APPEAR TO BE.
    Nothing sticks – because the ‘self-center’ has NO location in this ACTUALITY and it has no substance for anything to stick to- except in the appearance of ‘things’. AND you cannot separate the appearances because it is all ONE appearance ‘appearing’ to no one.
    You are the KNOWING and nothing other than THAT.
    The ‘irony’ is that if this all makes sense, then you probably have missed it – yet you cannot truly miss it because you are THAT, no matter how it appears to express itself.
    Gurus and teachers who insist that there is something that they can see, something that you need to see are really misleading ‘no-one’.
    It is all a play of the elements.
    ‘We’ all dance and sing….and point at THAT which is beyond all appearances – including the pointing.

  19. Posted by Cheryl on 11.22.09 12:47 pm

    Thanks for the clarification Gilbert, much appreciated by no one.:)

  20. Posted by gilbert on 11.22.09 1:53 pm

    What an amazing gift this site is…….in a ‘world of spiritual bullshit’ this site just cuts all the crap away and leaves you present and aware without a story of accomplishment to play with in the mind.
    Such freedom ‘appears’ to be enjoyed by a few lucky ones and yet it is the natural state that BELONGS to everyone.
    The story of ‘I don’t get it’ or ‘I had it and then I lost it’ are exposed for what they are. Amazing.

  21. Posted by fernando on 11.23.09 1:51 am

    If there is nothing to attain, if there is nothing to get (and no one who gets ‘it’)… ¿how could anything go wrong?
    Whatever you ‘do’ is perfect just as it is (including apparent ‘seeking’)!

  22. Posted by Randall Friend on 11.23.09 5:08 am

    If there is seeking, there must be the pre-existing assumption that Oneness or the totality is already the case. But if this is so, then must not that Oneness already include the seeker? Must not that Oneness already encompass all parts? Can the part reach Oneness? What distance is the part from Oneness or totality? Can the part or individual reach within and pull out Oneness?

    Therefore there is no “reaching” Oneness – no arriving at or attaining Advaita. There is only this Life or Intelligence – the nondual existence which is presently manifesting as a thought “I AM”, manifesting as the conceptualization of that pure “I AM”-ness or intimate knowledge of existence. And in that conceptualization of I AM-ness the so-called individual seeker is arrived at as only more concept. It is this concept which is seeking, this train of thought, this bundle of experience. The seeker and the seeking, all generated in this conceptualization, is like a wave on the ocean, sometimes calm, sometimes stormy.

    The first experiences and all thereafter, sensation or perception, are only there because you are there – all appearances can be negated yet YOU are THAT which cannot be negated. Just try to negate your own being. Try to doubt your true self. You cannot, simply because any experience requires your presence. The very negating requires you to be there. The experience depends on you, yet you do not depend on any experience to be.

    Right now, before the next seeking activity – you remain. The seeking comes to FIND yourself, yet what you are must already be there before the seeking, before the definition of a seeker, before the definition or translation which “creates” the individual who seeks.

    You do not require attainment, realization, reaching Oneness. You already ARE Oneness, seeing itself, Life presently looking at itself. The part which arrives at Oneness or totality can never be reality.

  23. Posted by Cheryl on 11.23.09 6:00 am

    ‘YOU are THAT which cannot be negated’. Is ‘you’ just a word to describe the indescrible? I read or hear things like you are no one and nothing, and then you say there is a YOU there experiencing and the experience could not happen otherwise. When we say there is nothing and no one are we merely talking conceptually? Is what IS just what remains after the conceptual negation and we call it YOU?

  24. Posted by claudia on 11.23.09 6:42 am

    There is a “you” which appears as thought – as a story of an apparently separate “me” and as such it’s non existent. And then ther is the YOU, which is pure awareness, the seeing and knowing itself, and as such not discribable nor anywhere to lacalize – like the eye that can’t see itselfI.

  25. Posted by claudia on 11.23.09 6:49 am

    It seems, though, that there is no “way around” the investigation, the discerning of the mind’s nature and activities, the exposing of (all) beliefs, the trying to locate this “me”, the going to the very bottom of the matter, the seeing through the false, the finding out what is really going on… It is an experiential journey, like Rupert said, a plunging into experiencieng with the whole of “my” being, uncensord, unfiltred, raw experiencieng without a center… Because otherwise, it will be just a mere intellectual understanding. One can spend a life long saying: “everything what is happening is okay” and for ever miss the point. And to how many “things happening” does one say “it is okay”, anyway – 99% to what is disturbing for the “me” – whilst billions or trillions of “things happening” – in fact, life as a whole – remains unnoticed…
    However, in ultimate instance, whatever is the case, is the case, dispite what I might think…

  26. Posted by Randall Friend on 11.23.09 7:30 am

    Cheryl,

    The YOU that cannot be negated is that presence which is always here, the pure cognizing which is said to be “space-like” – not findable, without any attributes – because attributes are “things” – definable IN space and time – this concept of “thingness” is duality itself – a thing must stand alone, apart, separate.

    Can that which is always here be negated? Can that which never changes be negated or reduced?

    Therefore this YOU is not a thing among things, yet it is ever there – always present, always aware – always the aware-ness. Isn’t that what you really are?

    The “someone” is necessarily another “thing” among things – that’s always only ever a mental construct – therefore that YOU is not a personal, limited “someone” – that “someone” is a feeling, a sense, a state, an experience – it comes and goes. What you are does not come and go – hence it is said to be always-here.

    You are. That is not negatable. It cannot be argued, it cannot be reduced. You are most certain of this fact. Yet WHAT you are is only definable in terms of “things”, and in doing so, many associations and identifications are applied to that you-are-ness or I-AM-ness. But that’s all the mind can do – try to define what you are in terms of some “thing” among things. This is the nature of limitation or so-called “bondage”.

    You are present and aware – that is how you know your Self, that is how you know you exist. That is a direct pointer, an obvious and self-evident fact – knowledge of this is the beginning and ending of the search – the middle is irrelevant. Whatever happens in the search has always been a search outside yourself for something, some “thing” – or a search for some illusory concept of Oneness.

    That’s why Bob says the only way out is “full stop”. This means right here, right now – what IS is IT. What IS is the entirely of reality. And YOU are what IS, without the possibility of a second.

  27. Posted by anatta on 11.23.09 7:46 am

    Thought makes this seem too complicated. YOU ARE. NOW. HERE. No need to become anything.

  28. Posted by gilbert on 11.23.09 8:19 am

    There are no rules but it feels like someone is cheating if the Master Key is offered without any task being completed by the aspirant. That is a clue. Endless ‘clues’ do not add up to the Revelation. They just bog the player down into a mire of intellectual crap. Let me talk in riddles for the heck of it.
    Written on an extremely rare fortune cookie wrapper is the master key.
    On the front of the wrapper in Gold lettering it says ‘Imagination’.
    The Master Key is written in dull grey on the back of the wrapper.
    The same words are inscribed under a small stone at every major ‘scene’ on the ‘Game Board’ – but few ever pick it up and even those who do pick it up and read the inscription, they usually dismiss it, merely believing that it is only a ‘clue’ to a partial section of ‘their particular problem in the game’ at that particular moment in the game.
    Master Key = Master Key.
    The inscription reads in very small letters

    “Nothing is happening”

  29. Posted by Randall Friend on 11.23.09 9:18 am

    Claudia,

    Yes, the investigation happens and that mental process is seen for what it is. But if that is so, then what? If it is seen that reality is being delivered, 100% as imagination, then what? Where do you stand? Where is the investigator?

    So we go to the edge of the cliff, only to find out that the search, the path leading to the cliff, standing on the edge, even the one who may fall – is nothing but a story.

    Therefore investigation happens until it is clear that investigation never happened. The seeker seeks until it is clear there never was a seeker. Now tell me what investigation can the seeker do?

    Nevertheless, the investigation does go on. Mind IS the seeking itself – always trying to fit a mold of separation upon nondual reality. But in realizing that, even “mind” is a product of that mold of duality. No mind, no seeking, no ignorance, no realization. Only ever THIS, which is absolutely undefinable and indescribable. The very first attempt to do so, in ANY fashion, is already false, automatically dualistic.

    Even these words are bullshit.

  30. Posted by claudia on 11.23.09 9:49 am

    Thank you, Randall! You have left me by all means speechless and clueless, hahaha.

  31. Posted by mark on 11.23.09 10:59 am

    This may be obvious, but after listening to these words by John, i find a sense of peace, of oneness, and yet for once the mind does seem to come up with a valid question which appears to open up a truth: ‘you like this because it makes you feel comfortable’ What about the times when life and actions appear to take over and the resulting thoughts and feelings are discomfort and unease? There is always an intellectual understanding that this too is fine, but the deeply ingrained direction seems to be pointing me towards ways of finding more comfort and less dis-ease. I suppose the final question is how to be ok with discomfort. To use a Buddhist term, it is the cultivation of ‘equanimity’ that appears so hard. I know the answer intellectually: cease to cherish opinion, what is wrong with right now, etc but how to undo SO MUCH conditioning.. Can it really just fall away? Many thanks, as always, for these beautiful programmes. Despite my continuing attachments, its all a lot looser than it was!

  32. Posted by mark on 11.23.09 11:04 am

    Sorry.. I appear to have double posted (technical problem, not ego!)

  33. Posted by gilbert on 11.23.09 12:03 pm

    Mark – Equanimity CANNOT be cultivated. Buddhists are stuck with cultivating all kinds of ‘things’ and none of it is of any value whatsoever. Equanimity is Equanimity. Compassion is compassion.
    Even the falling away is just an appearance of falling away.
    Each breath is fresh and new. All conditions can fall away in an instant – less time than a breath.
    The apparent continuity of the ‘me’ is due to memory. The ‘story of me’ is the problem. Drop it and SEE.
    Memory is NOT the immediacy of knowing.
    No amount of theorizing will be equal to ‘No Thought’.
    The mind is time. The mind is time. The mind is time.
    I can go on repeating that short sentence forever and the recognition of its meaning may never register fully for a mind that is grasping at something.
    One of Bob’s clear pointers is perfect at any moment.
    “Start from the fact that you ARE already THAT”.

    The habitual ‘point of view’ from mind (in time) is cut aside.

    No amount of thought will help. So be quiet and SEE.
    Thinking is not seeing. SEE – SEE – SEE.

  34. Posted by gilbert on 11.23.09 1:13 pm

    Here is another clue.
    All the pointers are just pointers.
    Like a sign post points to ‘London’, ‘Washington’ or ‘Timbucktoo’.
    The mind translates using words and images with added imagination and memory.
    We take the translation as being reality and it is not.
    Now thinking about what is being read here is happening and some understanding may appear to come about.
    The ‘bondage of self’ is nothing more than belief in words and ideas about a ‘self’ that does not exist.
    What is it that prevents you from seeing this factor clearly?
    Is it simply my concepts and ideas?
    The bindings of this bondage are made basically from words.
    Take the meaning out of the words and they are harmless sounds or symbols.
    Investigate this bondage that appears to ‘cut into your skin’ and ’cause’ suffering. At the core of it all is the belief in a central figure, which if expanded and examined – one realizes that that which is SEEING it all is not the bound up ‘figure’.
    This information being shared here has no value whatsoever unless it is applied to your own immediate ‘situation’.
    The habit of binding oneself up with words may reappear pretty quickly so one needs to investigate again, with clear intent, until the belief is erroded by clear and present evidence – evidence that shows that there is no one here in bondage.
    Once this is clear, what more can you seek or want?

  35. Posted by billtys on 11.23.09 3:01 pm

    “Even these words are bullshit.” Randall Friend’s post above.

    Randall’s words and all these additional pointers, spoken or written, listened to or read… are certainly bullshit! No words, no concepts, no postulations, no theories will ever be what is being pointed to! They all appear in the eternal, undeniable, attributeless and ever present YOU.

    What is ever present at breakfast, lunch and dinner? The food changes, but what is there that is ever present? What was there when you were five, ten, fifty years of age? The knowing, seeing, intelligence…is ever present. The change appears in the changeless YOU.

    We all love to have a comfortable concept to snuggle up into bed with and say to ourselves…yes, I finally understand what is being pointed to…and drop off to sleep…

    A dream appears…the dream appears in YOU…

    There is no dream…this “no dream” state appears in YOU.

    Without exception everything appears in YOU…from the “no dream ” situation (where there is simply no dancing going on)…to the full on rock and roll appearance! Everything appears in YOU. The question and the answer appears in YOU. Therefore you are the question and the answer.

    The seeing, hearing, thinking, doing… appears in YOU. The imagined entity with its sophisticated circuitry adds the thought I see, I hear, I think, I do…but it is ineffectual. Clearly the seeing is there ‘before’ the mind creates the ‘I see’. The ‘I see’ is just a vibration, just a phantom, just an appearance, just a thought and a thought has no independent existence. It appears in the ever present YOU.

    None of this bullshit could register without the ever present YOU. How could YOU and the appearance be separate?

    In the same way that seeing and hearing is happening…understanding is also happening.

    The imagined entity does not understand…and that’s no bullshit!

  36. Posted by ricnz1 on 11.23.09 7:24 pm

    In our direct experience we can all say:

    I am here

    The “I am” is the conceptual symbol for your actual non-conceptual awareness.
    Just like the thought “water” is the conceptual symbol for the non-conceptual experience of water (what water feels like and looks like etc.)

    As Bob says “the thought is never the thing”. If you were to try and drink the thought “water” everyone would think you were mad, but this is exactly what has happened with the thought “I am”(as if you actually were the thought “I am” instead of it just being a useful symbol)

    The thought “I am here” is not a problem. If you look at this experience right now; something is here, but where? This “I am here-ness” on direct experience is nowhere to be found as an actual objective experience. The mind can only know objects. So all the mind can say is “I don’t know where I am”. Still your “I am here-ness” is still here. It is totally pointless to look for it, because it is already here cognizing these words. Where else could it be? What I am(awareness) saying is that the you(awareness) that is congnizing these words is it.

  37. Posted by stephen met on 11.24.09 2:26 am

    Very Clear

  38. Posted by Eric on 11.24.09 3:16 am

    “Therefore this YOU is not a thing among things, yet it is ever there – always present, always aware – always the aware-ness. Isn’t that what you really are?”

    Once again I get tripped up because when I am unconscious there is no awareness, no presence, no “always” aware. It is totally gone. I don’t know “it”. There is nothing at all. Is that what I really am? Nothing at all?

    “You are. That is not negatable. It cannot be argued, it cannot be reduced.”

    I am only when I am not unconscious. I don’t know I am when I am asleep, for example.

    But what’s interesting is when I am unconscious – I don’t know that I am unconscious. hahaha

  39. Posted by fernando on 11.24.09 3:19 am

    You are what you are, ever.
    YOU, Presence-Awareness, whatever the content of this.

  40. Posted by Scarfox on 11.24.09 2:58 pm

    This is interesting: I watched a video on the net about a guy trapped in a coma for 23 years – google it if you want to watch it.
    The poor guy was in a coma for 23 years, but it turned out he was paralyzed and was aware of everything going on. Also, the poor guy didn’t realize the truth of what he is in all that time he was still thought-bound. He had glimpses it seems though, he said that “Sometimes I was only consciousness”, also he said he dealt with it by going into other existences or following his thoughts into the past. I guess thoughts are real to the fully paralyzed as it lets them actually relive the past.

    Ed: No one can re-live that past and thoughts are appearances, they are not reality as such.
    AND…..Please do not post videos on this site…….you can simply give directions on how to find them. If we start having heaps of added links here, the site will deteriorate into an ugly mish mash.

  41. Posted by fernando on 11.24.09 10:25 pm

    “Start from the fact that you are THAT”, says Bob Adamson.
    And THAT is 100% ‘acceptance’. Another name of THAT is ‘love’.
    If in the appearance the apparent ego is resisting, THAT ‘accepts’ that resistance, completely.
    In other words, THAT is ego-ing, isn’t it?
    The resistance (ego) is not real. It’s only apparent.

  42. Posted by Scarfox on 11.25.09 3:42 pm

    Well I mean that is what he claimed, probably some coma lucid dreaming…….Sorry about the link, didn’t know!

  43. Posted by Scarfox on 11.26.09 9:51 am

    Everything is awareness. The seer is the seen. The seen is the seer yes?

  44. Posted by mark on 11.26.09 11:10 am

    I’ve run out of questions. Its like a reverse problem: THIS is the answer. Now what is the question? There doesnt appear to be a question :-S

  45. Posted by billtys on 11.26.09 12:04 pm

    Yes…like Mark says above…questions are really useless…because they only generate more answers and then more questions. Enquiry from the level of the mind will create a looping scenario.

    Start from the fact you are already That…

    There is only seeing.

  46. Posted by Scarfox on 11.26.09 12:55 pm

    Actually seeing implies other, it seems more exact to say there is only being, in which seeing happens although they may be synonymous. The mind well do questions and answers regardless until a full stop occurs.

  47. Posted by gilbert on 11.26.09 8:05 pm

    The mind is time.
    Questions are not useless.
    As long as doubts and questions appear then they need to be investigated.
    If there truly are no more questions, then good, don’t make it into a new problem and don’t claim anything because there are no questions.
    It is merely a sign that you are ‘on the right track’, so to speak.

    SEEING does not imply ‘other’ – it does not imply anything at all.
    It is SEEING.
    The mind implies all kinds of things and none of it has any substance that could possibly obscure the SEEING.
    Who is it that claims to understand?

    The mind is TIME.
    Whatever appears in the mind is ‘time bound’ and yet it has no duration whatsoever.

    Being happens in the SEEING. Seeing is non-being.
    You cannot find one spot of evidence about the SEEING as a phenomenal occurrence. You can demonstrate how the eyes ‘work’ in a science lab or a class room lecture but the entire demonstration and all those who attend, all ‘appear’ in the SEEING. The SEEING cannot be explained by any THING. Where are you Seeing FROM?
    EVERYTHING appears in the SEEING – there is no exception to this.
    The things appearing are not separate from the SEEING because they ARE the SEEING.
    It is ALL Seeing – ALL Knowing.
    All these apparent separate individuals are ONE in ESSENCE. Non Duality is not divided into parts.
    You cannot squeeze this Cosmic Consciousness, which is the Pure Cognizing, into a conceptual framework in the mind.
    When the struggle to understand is given up, effortlessly, all by itself, then what is clearly obvious stands ever before you and within you, transparently through you and not separate from what you are – because THAT is what you ARE.

    No contrived stance in the mind’s ruminations will ever amount to anything equal to what you truly ARE. You are not a thought.
    Stop ignoring your true nature and cease from pretending to be what you are not. So simple.

    Watch the mind and SEE any objections it has to these pointers – that which objects is what constitutes the bondage of self.

  48. Posted by Ronna on 11.27.09 5:04 am

    Thanks Gilbert, giving up struggling to understand, seeing mind ruminations appearing, frustration appearing, more ruminations more frustration . . . INVESTIGATION, seeing knowing, perfection

    The simplicity is “eye-opening”

  49. Posted by fernando on 11.27.09 12:44 pm

    Thoughts are just thoughts.
    They can’t trouble you more than do the images on a TV screen.
    You, this space-like Awareness on which thoughts appear, remain untouched by them.
    Thoughts are… just thoughts!!

  50. Posted by IdahoBert on 11.27.09 3:42 pm

    How does love or compassion fit into non-duality? Is compassion or love for suffering people an enabling of the illusion of separation–their’s and “mine?” Is compassion and love an appearance in awareness or awareness itself? In the dualistic language we are sentenced to using there appears to be an antagonism between wisdom and love. I know everything is awareness and I know this remedial question cannot really be answered in the mind. But I feel compelled to ask it anyway.

  51. Posted by Scarfox on 11.27.09 5:16 pm

    It’s all just language, but you said seeing is non-being, does this mean that the seen, is being? And since objects can cease to be, the seeing is non-being, since seeing is there regardless of what happens. But that doesn’t matter anyway because the seen is the seeing as well. And earlier I was talking about pure being.

  52. Posted by billtys on 11.27.09 7:59 pm

    Only the imagined entity has a problem.

    That is why I proposed in an earlier post that “questions really are useless”. Any question appears in what is being pointed to…it appears in the knowing/seeing… and is not separate from the knowing/seeing. Breakfast, lunch and dinner…the changing (food) appearing in the changeless (you).

    Everything without exception appears in the knowing/seeing and is the knowing/seeing. The question, the questioner and the ensuing answer… is just another appearance.

    If it is seen that questions (and everything else) simply appear in what is being pointed to… then that’s that.

    Why would you ask another question? That question and the next one… and the next one… and all the answers and concepts that follow… appear in that ever present space like emptiness.

    Everything appears in the mirror. Everything. Not one aspect escapes reflection. Even the frustration at not being able to understand this with the mind cannot escape reflection. How could that frustration (reflection) even be without the mirror? What is being pointed to is the mirror.

    The mirror is not known…yet undeniable. The mirror is atributeless yet contains and IS absolutely everything…the mirror is not separate from the reflection… and the reflection is the mirror.

    So SEE that the question is an appearance in what is being pointed to…and SEE that ANY answer appears in what is being pointed to…and SEE the understanding just bubbling up.

  53. Posted by billtys on 11.27.09 8:13 pm

    Some high brow and deeply intellectual propositions were aired at Bob’s place last night…but sort of interesting.

    I won’t go into them here. Suffice to say… what could any proposition or theory or postulation be except an appearance in what is being pointed to? Everything appears in what is being pointed to.

    “I am that by which I know I am” Nis.
    “One expressing as many” Bob.

  54. Posted by billtys on 11.27.09 8:20 pm

    There is only the immediacy.

    How long is the immediacy? There is no time in the immediacy.

    How can anything be or appear in the immediacy…because for anything to be or to appear time and space must be there also.

    So time appears in the immediacy. Time appears in no time.

    Even this concept appears in what is being pointed to. The statement cannot escape registration.

    There is only natural functioning.

  55. Posted by gilbert on 11.27.09 11:19 pm

    5428 visitors since 10-29-2009 – from Website stats.
    Silent majority.

  56. Posted by Cheryl on 11.28.09 4:29 am

    On my second read through of I Am That…Nisargadatta suggests it’s our attitude about what’s arising that matters, meaning there is no controling whether the question arises or not. If there is a response of the I am the body/mind kind that is not it.

    Just watching, witnessing and knowing all the while that is not it until glimpses are SEEN, is that enough? When there’s no more questions, great! But there does appear to be a mean time for some of us.

  57. Posted by Ronna on 11.28.09 5:04 am

    When the answer is KNOWN the question and the questioner dissolve.

  58. Posted by Ronna on 11.28.09 7:07 am

    SEEING-KNOWING disolves the question, the questioner and the answer.

  59. Posted by gilbert on 11.28.09 9:34 am

    Yes, it may appear as a ‘mean time’ for some of us. When the fat ‘me’ is starved of energy it gets ‘lean and mean’. It may appear to get angry and hungry for a ‘feed’ on self-indulgent activities. For some it may appear that the ‘me’ will not give up without a struggle.
    The ‘messengers’ who ‘feed’ almost nothing to the ‘me’ in there delivery are not popular. The most popular ‘messengers’ always have lots of fodder tossed into the message and the followers feast on those tasty pieces.
    What is your intention? What is your attitude?
    Nothing can truly stand in the way of seeing-knowing.
    Whatever the ‘me’ clings to, it will be exposed as an obstacle.
    Everything is clear and obvious in the ‘first instant’ of cognition.
    If your attitude is to SEE what is actually going on without favor or selection, then recognition is bound to happen.
    The essence of re-cognition is cognition in the first and only instant – and THAT is it right now.
    The mind is time.
    You are not the mind nor the body.
    If you perceive a problem about this ‘pointing’ then investigate it and the obstacle will present itself without delay.
    With a clear intent to actually SEE whatever it is, then ‘the seeing of it’ will ‘happen’.
    Seeing that is it nothing is the ‘key’.
    Seeing is always happening, even if the attitude is to avoid the truth. What is true is blazingly obvious. You can try to avoid it if ‘you’ can – but the result is only imagination and fantasy.
    For some the clear message is the most challenging ‘thing’ that they will ever come across and ‘how’ they ‘behave’ in the face of it is the exact ‘material’ necessary that is offered up for them to investigate.
    “The only thing that can (appear to) harm you is your own imagination” (paraphrasing a pointer from Nisargadatta).

    No harm done is the revelation of our true essence.
    Nothing is happening.

  60. Posted by Stephen on 11.28.09 2:37 pm

    Hi Bob,

    Here’s my reply to your well articulated question:

    Compassion flows freely from the natural state of non-duality. Its expression is fathomless. Attempts to “practice” compassion, equanimity, kindness, and joy is supported by many as the highest activity, and that accumulating merit from practice will eventually lead to liberation. Practice, as such, is a mistaken idea, an assumption that one can achieve non-duality from an I/Thou stance; one person helping another in the attempt to improve what is already perfect. This a fool’s path that each must recognize as such for himself. Non-dual awareness is unencumbered and expresses itself perfectly. It is completely present, knowing, and powerful. When the false idea that I must achieve is seen for what it is, one appears to step through a gate-less gate. The gate closes behind upon the recognition that ‘One is That'; the illusion unravels.

  61. Posted by nondualitynow on 12.01.09 2:43 am

    For those who resonate with the simplicity and compassion of this great freind, you’ll find several more Podcast audios at:
    http://beingisknowing.blogspot.com/